Talk:Númenor

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Númenórean v. Númenorean[edit]

Isn't the adjective form Númenórean rather than Númenorean? -Aranel ("Sarah") 16:49, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I looked it up. And yes, it is. (I checked both The Silmarillion for an early perspect and The Peoples of Middle-earth for a later perspective.) Númenórean is the adjective (or the noun referring to a person from Númenor) and Númenor is the noun. -Aranel ("Sarah") 17:20, 15 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction[edit]

Why is this page flagged as contradicting itself? -- betakate18:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(Long since resolved, as of 22 Dec 2005) Elphion 21:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

because the book says somthing different? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Warlord zephyr (talk • contribs) 19:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Long Life[edit]

I've noticed that there is no mention of the Numenorians having long life.

In the books, I believe the Numernorians lved for hunreds of years, with one king reigning for 400. Argorn, a decendent of the Numenoreans lived to be 210. This section lacks any mention of the Numeorians long life or how they attained it. Was it part of the gift of Numenor?--Eldarone 01:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it's true. However the kings, as descendants of Elros Peredhil (or having lineage from the original royal house, e.g. the House of Lords of Andunië)have an extra long span of life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.93.95.42 (talk) 03:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the line of the kings was the line of Earendil (need spell check)who married an elf. She gave birth to elrond and elros. They where given a choice by the valar, to become mortal or remain elf-kind. Elrond chose to be elf kind but elros chose to be mortal and as such a longer life span is given to him.--a mind without purpose will walk in dark places 20:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Warlord zephyr (talk • contribs)

Numenoreans lived for 3 times the life span of normal mortals (180-240 years). Earendil lived for 500 years, and his descendants in the royal house lived longer than other Numenoreans. The first ~10 rulers of Numenor all lived to around 400 years old. Life spans started to decline after the rule of Atanamir the Great, and continued on through the end of the Third Age. There have been many reasons listed for this decline: the people lost joy in life, becoming afraid of death; rebelling against the Valar; later losing Numenor itself. It is interesting to note that the Numenoreans developed at the same rate as normal mortals (ie: coming of age at 25), but that the aging process was slower, and people only became "elderly" in the last ~10 years of their lives before dying. John.guthrie (talk) 10:41, 21 October 2009 (UTC) <Unfinished tales, Silmarillion, LOTR>[reply]

Eärendil was partially elvish and chose to be of the elder race. In Tolkien's mythology he is still alive, riding the skies in Vingilot with the silmaril. GimliDotNet (talk) 06:25, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another "happy coincidence" ?[edit]

Just like Atalantë and Atlantis are similar, I think it worthy of mention that Númenor bears strong similarity to Latin numina and English word numinous. The story of Númenor -- a divinely created island of humanity, once glorious and now fallen -- is just the kind of numinous myth that Tolkien and C. S. Lewis would call "true myth." I'm sure I'm not the first person who noticed this; does anyone know a reference within "the Tolkien community" to point up this IMHO important fact? LandruBek 14:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Atlantis connection was deliberate... Tolkien specifically stated it several times. I don't recall having heard the 'numina' theory before, but note that 'númen' means 'west' in Quenya. I'd have to check, but I believe that meaning of the root predates it's use in 'Númenor'. --CBDunkerson 14:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Page title[edit]

the page title is "Númenore"; there is, however, no redirect for "Numenore". So when i type in "Numenore" i get nothing. the name of the page should either be changed or there should be a redirect for "Numenore" sorry to disrupt your thoughtfull discussion w/ something this trivial.

Done Bryan 19:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't this piece be under "The Silarillion?" It makes more sense, because almost all of the proffessor's accounts of them are in his mini-encyclopedia

Done User:Aubs 400 15:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC

The Ban and the flat world[edit]

If the world was flat during the time of Numenor, how far exactly would one have to sail until one would lose sight of anything? Wouldn't it have been possible to see as far from Numenor as one's eyesight allowed, maybe even up to Aman and Middle-earth, weather permitting and given sufficient visual acuity? What then are the exact terms of the Ban?

-- Thomas 15:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing in the available texts about how far east one might be able to see, but it's said in Appendix A of RotK that the keen-eyed could see the the tower of the havens on Tol Eressëa from the Meneltarma on Númenor. It is nowhere said for what cause one could see farther from a height on a flat earth, but I suppose we could guess that the thickness of the air at lower elevations, density of mist, spray, and water vapor upon the sea, have something to do with it. The difficulty of resolving very distant objects place practical limits on how far one could see regardless of elevation. This must have been important, since the Ban specifically forbade the Númenoreans from sailing so far west that they could no longer make out their own shores, or to attempt to set foot on the Undying Lands. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, indeed, here's a quote from the Silmarilion, p. 313: "[...] only the keenest eyes among them [could see Avallónë] from the Meneltarma, maybe, or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go." It would seem that either visibility at sea level is really bad or that the Meneltarma is really high. I'm finding this a somewhat weak point, though: surely there must be some very keen-eyed individuals or telescopy technology that would allow the Numenorians to have a quite good view of either the foreign or their own shores. -- Thomas 00:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think visibility at sea level is never great. Not as good as you get at high elevations in dry, dust-free conditions anyway. And remember there are the Enchanted Isles between Númenor and Eressëa, where it was sufficiently misty that it would have almost certainly have obscured the view.
But it probably was a weak point. I don't know that Tolkien ever thought completely through the consequences of a flat earth. He had conceived it mythologically, and only began to worry about practical consequences later when he decided that he was writing (at least partly) a feigned history instead -- and at that point he considered abandoning the idea of a historical flat earth entirely. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But I think that http://www.insaneflash.com/show.php?id=288 is better.--200.68.82.189 05:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that Tolkien never thought out that you could see any distance over ocean (barring atmospheric interference) on a flat earth. Vultur (talk) 03:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it stated in the Silmarilion that because of the mystisism of the tempel on Meneltarma made it possible to seen further?. Caedes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.195.204.237 (talk) 00:12, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Númenor as Atlantis[edit]

Anybody else think all those bullets in the footnote (supporting the notion that Númenor is Atlantis) make for just a bit of over-kill? That information is easily available through the index of the Letters; why reproduce it all here? A much shorter note should suffice. Elphion 19:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than simply taking silence for consent, let me be specific: unless someone objects, I propose to replace the Atlantis notes with a much shorter one. Elphion 17:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Elphion 12:59, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Númenor as Atlantis?[edit]

It really seems that the comment in the introduction that:

"The author had not intended Númenor to be an allusion to the legendary Atlantis."

is at odds with this comment:

"Tolkien described his invention of this additional allegory to Atlantis as a happy accident"

and this comment:

"The reference to "Atalantë", saved until the last, provides the direct link between Tolkien's Númenor which sunk under the waves and the Atlantis which had the same fate in a millennia-old myth — which the reader may have suspected already, but could not be sure of until this moment." Anonymous 10:33, 14 December 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.244.116 (talk)

In one of the "Letters," Tolkien explicitly states that the Atlantis myth was the inspiration for his earliest conceptions of what would become Numenor. If I recall correctly, he goes so far as to say that the similarity was likely "obvious" to readers. I remember well that the first time I read his reference to "Atalante," I was surprised that he went so far; most unlike him.222.230.124.142 (talk) 09:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)TexxasFinn[reply]

Consideration for Deletion[edit]

I don't understand how this article is any less notable then any of the other dozens of articles concerning Tolkienesque mythology. It is well written, clear, and to the point. Númenor is clearly an independent subject of notable value within a greater mythology, and deserving of it's own article page. Please clarify, whoever is unhappy with it, what exactly needs to be expanded or changed. Rudy Breteler (talk) 17:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I still fail to see how there is a lack of notability- a seperate land within Middle-earth, containing it's own very particular characteristics and history which are not explained in such detail in any other article- nor should that history be explained in any detail elsewhere, as anywhere other then in an article concerning Númenor specificly, such information would lack relevance. Furthermore, this article has been rated as "high-importance" on the importance scale for Wikiproject: Middle-earth Rudy Breteler (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In undoing my removal of the template, Wikipedian YLSS wrote "template does not entail immediate deletion, it encourages to add sources." However, there are other templates which encourage users to add sources, without threatening deletion of the article if they do not. YLSS is a reputable Wikipedia user who has made a significant number of constructive contributions to the Wikipedia project. As such, I will trust that he/she has a reason for using the template that he/she did. I encourage YLSS to explain why he/she feels that another template which encourages users to add sources without threatening deletion would not be more appropriate for this article. Rudy Breteler (talk) 17:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Um, this a result of a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth (a long story), during which it has been decided that all Middle-earth related articles should reference several third-party sources (that is, anything other than JRRT's and CJRT's books). This is indeed what Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) says, so everything is according to guidelines. Incidentally, I'm working on this article at the moment (in sandbox), but I still will only be able to reference UT & HoMe; so you're welcome to add other sources, see WP:Me S#References for suggestions. Súrendil (talk) 19:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who knows anything about Tolkien fiction should know that Númenor was the principle "actor" on the political stage of the entire Second Age of Middle-earth, through which Sauron tried to enslave the world to the worship of Melkor (Morgoth), along with other goals of his. The event of its obliteration by sinking into the sea provides the backdrop for every single decision made by the future Dunedain, of which Aragorn is the last mentioned, in the "epilogue" work, The Lord of the Rings. Regarding notability, I would place it as the third most important subject of the entire legendarium as a whole. But, what do I know, eh? --Chr.K. (talk) 05:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just see WT:Me#Notability of articles and sections below. Súrendil (talk) 10:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article is pretty blatant at the end of the opening summary about the major position Númenor/the Akallabeth occupies in Middle-earth history. Is desire to source that reality the only issue here? --Chr.K. (talk) 21:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Numenor/Akallabêth is a central part of Tolkien's legendarum. It is of central importance, and it would be difficult to come up with any Tolkien-related article that is more notable. I take the liberty of replacing the notability tag with a merge tag, since merging with Akallabêth is arguable. There is lots of third party literature (Tolkien studies, e.g. J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia) that can be cited. Hell, every discussion of Tolkien's work will dedicate sizeable portions to it. dab (𒁳) 20:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Corsica[edit]

I note with amusement that Corsica(?) shows up as a five-pointed star just next to the pillars of Hercules in the Anglo-Saxon Cotton Map (ca. AD 1000). dab (𒁳) 20:13, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Empty section[edit]

Why does the article contain an empty section titled "Concept and creation"? Was there formerly some text under that heading that got deleted? Pat Berry (talk) 17:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Article Needs Editing[edit]

The part about Numenorians being blondes is not accurate; any references to nordic peoples, had to do with the Rohan, who were based on the Vikings, er, I mean, Saxons. Who cares they were basically the same thing. Please revise, or at least source it.

09:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)stardingo747 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.148.120.97 (talk)

The writer did source his writing. It is very likely that many Numenoreans had blonde hair and blue eyes. The isle of Numenore was given in gift to the three houses of the Edain. The largest and most successful house was that of Hador, and they were described as tall, blonde, and blue eyed. Elros' grandfather Tuor, and all of his human ancestors, were specifically described as such. The house of Beor was nearly destroyed in the wars with Morgoth, and the house of Haleth was always a minor group. Erendis was described as being a rare beauty, with fair skin, dark hair, and grey eyes. She came from the western region of the island, and was said to be descended from the house of Beor. I think the confusion arises because in LOTR, the Numenoreans are described as resembling the house of Beor. But they were descended from the Lords of Andunie, and their followers (the Faithful) who left Numenor to escape persecution, and settled in the northwest of Middle Earth. All-in-all, I think the writer did a good job of interpeting the texts. 142.176.48.170 (talk) 12:16, 21 October 2009 (UTC) <Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, LOTR>[reply]

Why do you wrote that Numenor is a continent?[edit]

Hallo, I'm Italian; I write in the name of the Italian Wikiproject called "Progetto Tolkien". We don't know if classify Numenor as a island or as a continent. We know that you have wrote that Numenor could be a continent (in the template on the page). But why? What are sources? (We must be sure it's the right solution). Thank you and I'm sorry for my english. --Innocenti Erleor (talk) 14:08, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now this question is in this page. --Innocenti Erleor (talk) 13:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tolkien refers to the "Isle of Numenor" and other variations of that numerous times, so Ithink you should definitely refer to it as an island.116.91.76.164 (talk) 01:56, 4 February 2012 (UTC)TexxasFinn[reply]

He also referred to it as an island continent. GimliDotNet (talk) 06:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"we look to Númenor that was"[edit]

For 'first appearance' the infobox says, "The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales". However I would have thought the first appearance was in The Lord of the Rings, where there are several significant references, even if one excludes the Appendixes. Jungleboy63 (talk) 13:00, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We need summary style[edit]

This article has way, way too many details. We need to cut the unneccessary overly detailed descriptions of every brooke, hillock and stone.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:14, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:35, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Andúnie" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Andúnie. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:14, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Andunië" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Andunië. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 13:15, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Length[edit]

This is really long and over-detailed. My inclination is that everything within the level 3 Natural features heading is unnecessary and can be deleted, but wanted to gain a consensus on this before such a drastic section removal. Hog Farm (talk) 19:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I was trying to steel myself to do exactly the same. It's hopelessly UNDUE and totally indefensible as it now stands. It also needs a lot of primary sources. I suggest we just get on with it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:27, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Have continued to copy-edit for length, tone, and focus. It's a bit better but still repetitive. The basic problem is that History, Culture, and Politics all overlap. I suspect we'd do better having a single History with most of the other stuff cut right down and folded in where needed in the History. And the Geography would still feel overblown at half the length ...
Then we can have a few other bits such as the Calendar as examples of Tolkien's creation of Myth ... supported by the other thing that's very wrong at the moment, the lack of scholarly sources (of which there are masses).
Themes that ought to be brought out with critical commentary include
--- the whole Atlantis thing,
--- the idea that West is good and Westernesse is better (moral geography again),
--- the whole decline and fall of the Numenorean Empire thing, and
--- the fall of Man thing too (wasn't Tolkien a Catholic?!) :)
In short, I'm not sure that starting again wouldn't be easier really. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:11, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned redirects aka is everything covered that should be[edit]

The following topic redirect to this page, but are not mentioned on it. Are any of these things that should be mentioned at this page?

  • Amandil
  • Yôzâyan
  • Yozayan
  • Almaida
  • Bay of Andúnië
  • Bay of Andunie
  • Hyarastorni
  • Tarmasundar
  • Nísimaldar
  • Nisimaldar
  • Nísinen
  • Nisinen
  • Anadûnê
  • Anadûnë
  • Mar-nu-Falmar
  • Nindamos
  • Noirinan
  • North Cape (Númenor)
  • Oromet
  • Sorontil
  • Calmindon
  • Tol Uinen
  • Feasts in Numenor
  • Feasts in Númenor

I honestly don't remember what all of these topics are, there's a chance that some of these are remnants of old merges and must stay. Are any of these things items worth mentioning in the article? Hog Farm (talk) 00:19, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can lose all of them though the Bay of Andunie, shown on the map (variant spellings), is probably worth keeping. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Amandil" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Amandil. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm (talk) 23:27, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Númenor/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BennyOnTheLoose (talk · contribs) 11:37, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for taking this on. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:59, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Comments round 1[edit]

Happy to discuss or be challenged on any of my comments.

  • Lead: Is there a source for the pronunciation as "/ˈnuːmɛnɔːr/"?
Removed, I suspect it's editorial, but also quite unnecessary.
  • Lead: Elenna-nórë is in the lead but not mentioned again. Might be worth adding to the article if there is more that can be said.
Removed.
  • Lead: Says that Númenor is in the "Sundering Seas" whereas infobox has "The Great Sea" with a link. Consider whether these should be made consistent.
Fixed.
  • Lead: "Commentators have noted, too, that it echoes" - "too" could probably be omitted here. Consider replacing "it" with what the "it" refers to - presumably something along the lines of "the devastation of Númenor."
Done.
  • Infobox: "Lifespan" doesn't seem like quite the right term. I suppose I'm thinking of something clunkier like "Fictional historical era" but I'm happy for "lifespan" to be retained.
Fixed.
  • Infobox: If the infobox refers to an island rather than an island civilisation, then I think Elros Tar-Minyatur should be omitted here as he did not found the island itself. Elros Tar-Minyatur is in the infobox, but appears in the article only as Elros. Consider adding the "Tar-Minyatur" to the first occurrence.
You're right. "Island kingdom" it is.

Physical Geography[edit]

  • Physical geography: "With clean air, King Tar-Meneldur built his tall tower here to watch the stars." I think minor rewording, unless the tall tower was built of clean air.
Fixed.
  • If there is anything in Tolkein that says anything else about Tar-Meneldur, I think it would be good to add that here for a bit of context.
Glossed.
  • "A tall tower was constructed there by Elros,"; "days of Tar-Aldarion"; Ar-Pharazôn In the same vein as the point above, add a little context if possible. (There is already more about Elros in the later section Land of Gift and about Ar-Pharazôn under Sauron)
Glossed all three of 'em.
  • "important in Númenórean policies" - should that be in "politics"? ("Policies" could be right.)
Clarified.
  • "As the Shadow fell over.." as this is the first reference, consider linking to the later part of the article or adding a brief note here.
Done. I'd not normally do this but I take your point.
  • I would normally just change this sort of thing, but best to check here - is "shipts" a typo?
Fixed.

Culture[edit]

  • Link Beleriand at the first mention. (It's linked later.)
Done.
Done.
Done.
Done.
  • Consider briefly explaining what oiolairë was (or linking to List of fictional plants which has a description). The reference to "bough of" does already indicate that it was a type of plant.
Done.

Fictional History[edit]

  • Land of gifts: "wonderful plants" - do we know what was wonderful about them?
Rm adjective.

Comments Part 2[edit]

  • Sea kings "forbidden to sail west out of sight" - if this is a direct quote, probably deserves a page reference.
Reworded.
  • "tantalizingly not far west" - you'll know better than I do whether "tantalizingly" fits here; I'd suggest a minor reword to something like "tantalizingly close to the west of" as I think it reads better without a "not" there. This is another one I'm happy to let stay as it is if you prefer the current wording.
Done.
  • Atlantis: as I don't have access to the Hale source, I'm assuming good faith with respect to it supporting all of the first paragraph.
Noted. There is a direct quote in the Hale citation.
  • Atlantis: "the only drowned island in earlier literature" - I'm had a go at looking at a machine-translated version of the Delattre source, and didn't find this part (" the only") there. I think it is better to caveat this with something like "in surviving" literature too, as lots of early literature is lost. Also, if "earlier" can be qualified - I think it basically means ancient here, rather than just "before Tolkien".
Done.
  • Fall: I've assumed good faith with respect to the summary of Shippey (2005).
Noted.
  • Fall: "Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic," will need a separate citation if not verified in Letters #131.
Added.

Thanks for the speedy responses earlier Chiswick Chap. I've not done the image and copyvio checks yet, but certainly not found any big issues so far. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:44, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:50, 24 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Chiswick Chap thanks for all your work on the article for and your responses to my comments. I'm happy to pass the article for GA. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:15, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SUSPICIOUS EDIT[edit]

@Bless the lord oh my soul: has deleted images from this and at least 2 other Tolkien-related articles via mobile edits as of the time I write this comment. The edit comments don't provide any explanation for why the images have been removed from the articles. The other articles are Decline_and_fall_in_Middle-earth and Old_Man_Willow. I'm not sure these edits should be reverted. I will leave similar comments on the other 2 articles. The edits should be reviewed by the community, in my opinion. Michael Martinez (talk) 00:30, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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