Talk:Zog I

Anniversary

An event in this article is a January 2 selected anniversary

Who was first?

If he was the second king, who was the first? --Wik 01:20, Aug 14, 2003 (UTC)

As far as I know Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy is the only other person to have been considered king of albania (List of Kings of Albania), but he came afterwards. Dori 02:07, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Essad Pasha, who had been Regent for the absentee Prince William (of Wied) declared himself King in 1919, and was assasinated 13-3-1920. He only controled parts of Albania. --Gerard von Hebel 02:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Fled

When did Zog flee from Albania? Some sources say April 7, some say April 12. Andres 20:45, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

April 7 is correct. --Wik 20:54, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)

Thank you. Another question. Victor Emmanuel of Italy became the King of Italia on April 16. Was this approved by the Assembly on April 12? Andres 21:53, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yes, the Constituent Assembly made the decision on April 12 and on April 16 an Albanian delegation went to the Quirinale to offer the crown to Victor Emmanuel. --Wik 22:29, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)

Thank you. Andres 22:34, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Was the Constituent Assembly just the National Assembly renamed? Andres 22:38, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

No, it was a new body summoned by the provisional committee which took over the administration after the invasion. --Wik 23:07, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thank you. You have such good sources. Please check the Timeline of Albanian history to 1993 for 1939. Andres 23:20, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Silent execution

Precisely what is a "silent execution"? And what would an "implied threat of silent execution" be?

I have no idea, but I am guessing it means an execution without trial, and one that is perfomed in secrecy (i.e. without public knowledge). --Dori 18:24, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Or perhaps maybe a disapearance, and never to be found again. (i.e. exile)

"Arab-Turkish"

I eliminated the phrase that said Albania had an "Arab-Turkish" society in the 1920s. The Arabs never ruled Albania and the social structures at the time were a legacy of Ottoman rule. --Jfruh 20:09, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup after 85.70.52.185

Could someone knowledgeable do cleanup after dozens of edits by 85.70.52.185? He has great fun putting jokes on other articles and this is possibly another one. Thanks. Pavel Vozenilek 11:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Member of Skanderbeg family???

What precisely makes this guy a member of the house of Scanderbeg???

Their own ambition, or an old folklore, or a proven descent???

I have seen good evidence that Skanderbeg's children later fled to south Italy, and the legitimate descent continued in certain Neapolitan princely houses.

Perhaps this is compatible with the knowledge that Turkish took Skanderbeg's bones and used them. What would they have done with Skanderbeg's heirs, had they got them. 217.140.193.123 18:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

It is ridiculous how some name him Scanderbeg III, he was a members of the Ottoman pasha family of Zagolli, Muslim, never heard to fire a gun against Turks before the independence of Albania. He changed the name from Zagolli (Slavic?) to Zogu (Albanian). His sisters, the princesses who played tennis in the Albania without schoolds, electricity, railway, or hospitals, and lived mostly in abroad, were named Shemsie, Kadrie, Izdie, who knows what. Please remove any allegations to related him to Scanderbeg.

Albania Stalinist?

As far as I know Albania was closer to China than the Soviet Union and Maoist, not Stalinist. 125.209.153.134 11:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Mao was Stalinist himself, while the USSR began denouncing Stalinism the next year after Stalin's death. СЛУЖБА (talk) 18:35, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Enver Hoxha was a passionate Stalinist and wrote one of the best "close-up" books on Stalin. Pascalulu88 (talk) 22:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Who are Curri and Prishtina?

An anonymous editor added "Curri and Prishtina" as the names of Zog's political opponents during his presidency. I am guessing that "Prishtina" is Hasan Bej Prishtina but I can't find any "Curri" anywhere on the History of Albania (1919-1939) page or elsewhere. Can someone at least supply a full name for this person? --Jfruh 18:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Curri is Barjam Curri a leader of nord Albania. In Albania now is a city with called Bajam Curri in Tropja. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 15:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Translate

I have a favour to ask-is there anyone who cans peak french,in order to translate the follwoing text about Zog withc contains vital information about him.I thank anyone who could asist me:

"Ahmed Zogu voit le jour dans la région du Mati en 1894. Il est fils et petit-fils de pachas turcs, membres de l'illustre famille des Toptani. Cette filiation lui vaut le titre de Mati Bey. Pendant la Première Guerre Mondiale, Ahmed Zogu se bat dans les rangs de l'armée autrichienne. A sa démobilisation en 1918, il rentre en Albanie, désormais affranchie de toute domination étrangère. Serbophile convaincu, il manoeuvre sur le plan politique afin d'empêcher Essad Pacha de s'emparer du pouvoir. Essad est finalement arrêté et emprisonné. En 1920 Zogu est récompensé de ses efforts et prend la direction du Ministère de l'intérieur. La jeune république albanaise connaît enfin son premier gouvernement régulier mais la situation est délicate. Les conservateurs, héritiers des traditions féodales Ottomanes menacent la stabilité du pays, tandis qu'anarchistes et communistes oeuvrent de leur côté pour la conquête du pouvoir.

1922 apporte à Ahmed Zogu sa nomination au poste de Premier Ministre. De 1922 à 1924, Zogu tente d'assainir le pays qui risque à tout moment de basculer dans l'anarchie. Ses plans aboutissent en partie, mais une révolte populaire fomentée par des opposants en juin 1924, l'oblige à quitter le pays et à se réfugier en Yougoslavie. Tirana est aux mains des hommes de Fan Noli qui dissout l'assemblée nationale et s'empare de tous les leviers du pouvoir. Une fois de plus Zogu fait appel à ses amitiés serbes. Depuis Belgrade il travaille à son retour qui a symboliquement lieu le 24 décembre 1924.

Le 05 janvier 1925, Zogu forme un gouvernement provisoire sous le contrôle d'un conseil de régence. Le 31 janvier 1925, il remporte les élections et devient ainsi président de la République albanaise pour un mandat de sept ans. Simultanément le nouveau président décide de se rapprocher de l'Italie, puissance montante de la région. Les efforts diplomatiques albanais aboutissent à la signature du traité de Tirana, paraphé le 27 novembre 1926. L'Italie s'engage au statu quo.

Sa nation mise à l'abri derrière des frontières diplomatiquement sûres, Zogu reprend la lourde tâche d'assainir le pays sur le plan intérieur. Il séduit les grands chefs de clans féodaux albanais et reçoit de leurs parts une sorte de vote de confiance, le Bessa. Le président Zogu a enfin les mains libres pour entamer sa politique de reformes. Un canevas législatif est mis en place et les modes de calcul de l'impôt sont revus pour assurer une égalité des citoyens. D'importantes lois sont promulguées. Le Président soucieux d'éviter par tous les moyens un coup d'état apure l'armée de ses éléments les plus indésirables et décide de constituer une gendarmerie calquée sur le modèle français. En même temps, Zogu annonce sa décision de gracier les agitateurs emprisonnés puis de les libérer. Toutes ces mesures n'empêchent pourtant pas Zogu de se conduire en dictateur.

Cependant, la grande révolution date du 25 août 1928, avec l'institution par l'Assemblée Nationale de la Monarchie héréditaire, parlementaire et constitutionnelle. Le 01 septembre 1928, Zogu proclamé mbret (roi) devient Zog I. "La Grande Albanie Ethnique" est désormais une nation indépendante lancée sur la voie de la modernité. Tel est le discours officiel. Zog I mène une politique éclairée pour le plus grand bénéfice des albanais et aussi le sien ! Zog admirateur de la République Française, substitue le Code Civil Français au droit coutumier Ottoman et met en place le suffrage universel. La modernisation du pays se poursuit bon train : Routes, écoles, ponts se construisent aux quatre coins de la nation. Le féodalisme est aboli et l'Albanie proclame sa laïcité.

Mais pour assurer sa modernisation, l'Albanie doit pouvoir financer ses reformes. Le pays est encore très pauvre, trop pauvre... Zog I conscient de cet état de fait se tourne vers les banques du voisin italien qui investissent des sommes colossales non sans prendre au passage le contrôle de nombreuses entités économiques albanaises. Rome exige toujours plus de garanties. Zog signe le second pacte de Tirana en novembre 1927. Le roi tente de lutter contre la mainmise des italiens et cherche sur la scène internationale le moyen de rompre l'isolement de sa nation. Paris et Belgrade sont sollicités par le mbret afin d'accroître leurs investissements et de faire contrepoids aux italiens. Si Belgrade accepte de soutenir un peu plus Tirana, Paris tourne le dos à sa Majesté Zog I. Le Duce est furieux, lui qui a économiquement satellisé l'Albanie, ne laissera pas échapper sa proie aussi simplement ! En juin 1934, la marine italienne croise en Adriatique au large des côtés albanaises, l'avertissement est claire ! Les accords italo-albanais de mars 1936 enfoncent un peu plus le clou, faisant de l'Albanie une sorte de colonie italienne. Une société d'état italienne s'empare des leviers de l'économie du royaume. Zog se débat, mais n'obtient aucune aide dans son bras de fer avec le Duce.

1938 et 39 sonnent le glas du règne de Zog I... Ciano est chargé par Mussolini d'étudier la question de la conquête de l'Albanie par les troupes italiennes. La pression monte ! Rome présente un plan de coopération à sa Majesté Zog I en mars 1939 : Il ne s'agit ni plus ni moins, d'un plan d'annexion en bonne et due forme. Zog refuse et cherche à gagner du temps tandis que l'assemblée octroie au roi les pleins pouvoirs. Le 07 avril 39, l'armée italienne débarque sur les plages albanaises . 40.000 hommes appuyés par leur marine et la Regia Aeronautica s'enfoncent en Albanie. Que peuvent faire les soldats du Roi avec leurs armes dépassés ? dès le lendemain Tirana tombe, en trois jours les bersaglieri du Duce contrôle le pays.

Le 16 avril, Zog I dans l'obligation d'abdiquer remet sa couronne au roi italien Victor-Emmanuel III. Le roi albanais en exil, se réfugie en Grèce, puis en Turquie, Roumanie, Pologne, Estonie, Suède, Norvège et enfin en France. Son leitmotiv est d'éviter de tomber entre les mains des forces de l'Axe, car il espère bien un jour rentrer à Tirana afin d'y reprendre la direction de sa nation.

En mai 40, Zog quitte la France battue par les troupes du Reich et s'enfuit pour Londres. Fin 1944, l'Albanie est enfin libérée mais tombe sous la mainmise des communistes qui empêche tout retour du roi. En 1946, la famille royale part pour l'Egypte du roi Farouk, Zog I espérant ainsi bénéficier de l'appui des souverains arabes. C'est des USA inquiétés par la présence des communistes en Adriatique que l'espoir viendra pour Zog, espoir il faut le dire de courte durée... Un plan de soulèvement est imaginé par la CIA avec comme but de chasser les communistes et de remettre Zog sur le trône. L'opération de la "compagnie des 4.000" démarre en avril 52 mais est un véritable fiasco. Des fuites d'un espion double, Philby sont entre temps parvenues jusqu'à Tirana. Zog vient de perdre toute chance de retrouver l'Albanie et son peuple.

C'est usé et fatigué que Zog quitte l'Egypte, où Nasser vient de prendre le pouvoir, pour la France et la côte d'azur. En 1957, il proclame son fils Leka comme son seul et unique successeur. Malade, il est hospitalisé à Paris puis à Suresnes où il décède à 65 ans. Zog I repose aujourd'hui au cimetière parisien de Thiais (Ile de France).".

by Zog II.

Who is Zog II ? СЛУЖБА (talk) 19:35, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Nobody has ever bothered to translate this ? Well, here goes...

Ahmet Zogu first saw the day in the region of Mati in 1894. He was the son and grandson of turkish pashas, members of the illustrious Toptani family. This affiliation brought him the title of Mati Bey. During the First World War, Ahmet Zogu fought in the ranks of the Austrian Army. After demobilisation in 1918, he returned to Albania, henceforth free of foreign domination. A convinced Serbophile, he manoeuvred politically to impede Essad Pasha from taking power. Essad was eventually arrested and imprisoned. In 1920, Zogu was rewarded for his efforts and took control of the Ministry of the Interior. The young Albanian republic finally experienced its first normal government, but the situation was delicate. The conservatives, heir to the feudal Ottoman traditions, menaced the stability of the country, while the anarchists and communists also tried to gain power.

More to come. Lathamibird (talk) 00:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Removing some comments on the page

First, Zog was not born a commoner. Zog was born an aristocrat, hence the Bej in his name. His father was a pasha and a governor of a province. Also, what does that mean he was mostly ignored by other European royality? Do we know that they mostly ignored him? Yes, since he was Muslim, having him marry another European royal would not have been possible. Could someone include a source? Isn't that a bit more of gossipy information? Does a statement like that really belong in an encylopedic article? Would I open World Book or Encyclopaedia Brittanica and find such a statement? Imperial78

• I based the first version of this article couple of years back to Jason Tomes' article in the September 2001 issue of History Today (one link here) ("cite your sources"-policy was less strict in those times). Unfortunately it clearly states that the European aristocrats ignored Zog, which seems to be very common view both among the historians and the aristocrats in question. Zog was not descended of any of the European royal or noble families and that is what unfortunately counted the most. Mussolini associated with him as a fellow military ruler (and later betrayed him) but the king of Italy did not. It is just a statement of an unfortunate fact - Skysmith 20:03, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Does this dispute hinge perhaps on the meaning of the term "ignore"? As the head of state and government of a European state (albeit a small one), obviously he wasn't "ignored" in the sense that other leaders pretended that he didn't exist. I think the sense of the word as originally used in the article is meant to imply that other European nobility and monarchy refused to acknowledge him as their equal in status. "Commoner" may be used in this sense as well: though his hereditary title of Bej gave him a noble status in the Ottoman culture into which he was born, other European nobility may have seen his family only as landed gentry, not as "true" nobles like themselves. As for whether this information constitutes "encyclopedic" knowledge -- well, the dealings of European royalty with one another may seem like tabloid fodder to us now, but clearly royal status was important to Zog, else he would have just billed himself as "president for life" or taken a quasi-republican popular title like his authoritarian/fascist counterparts around Europe were doing. Since he viewed being King as important to his policies, we should note how that policy played in other countries, though I admit that better sourcing and more concrete statements are in order. Did he make efforts to, say, have a state visit with Victor Emmanuel III that were snubbed? --Jfruh 20:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I am just trying to keep the article to known facts about Zog. Also, we have to get away from Western Eurocentric thinking. He was a noble in Albania. It doesn't matter what the nobles in England or Austria would have thought about his status, if they really did at all. What is more interesting is his relationship with King Farouk of Egypt. King Farouk invited King Zog to live in Egypt, perhaps both being of Albanian background gave them a certain sense of kinship, but anyway let's try to keep biographies of a higher quality that include more relevant information. As I said before, a wikipedia article should include basic information that I would find in a publication like Encylopaedia Britannica and not gossipy fodder. Imperial78

Zog was a European and it's not eurocentric to talk about what what other European monarchs thought of him. His wife was a Hungarian aristocrat. If he cared what other European nobles and monarchs thought, that should be in the article. If you read the article, you'd see that the country that Albania had the most important relationship with was Italy. It would be interesting to talk about what Farouk thought about Zog as well, of course; if you know something, why not add it? One of the reasons that Albania is interesting is that it is both a European and a Muslim county. The advantage of Wikipedia is, unlike a paper encyclopedia, there isn't a restriction on the amount of space. As much sourced information as we can find should be in the article. --Jfruh 21:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Albania is part of Europe. And Jfruh is right; European countries did have diplomatic relations with Zog's Albania but the European royalty and aristocracy did not consider him worthy of their attention. His daughters travelled extensively but they were treated as celebrities, not as royalty. Because Zog considered himself a king, what the European royals thought about him is a fact and encyclopedic information. And if you do have good information about Zog's relations with the king Farouk, it would be a very worthy inclusion to the article. - Skysmith 11:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a bit of a snub of King Zog from the other royals was that Albania rejected Prince William of Wied. Albania unlike other eastern European countries rejected a foreign prince as their sovereign. Bulgaria, Romania, and Greece all had foreign princes put on their thrones. Albania along with what became Yugoslavia had natives as their sovereigns. Most European royal families are in fact of German families (or Germanic). Just reading some geneologies, Zogu is a direct descendant of the Princess of Kruja, Mamica or Monica who married a Zogu Pasha (Governor of Seli-Mati). Imperial78

If you can provide sources for that, that also could be a worthy inclusion. -Skysmith

I found the Princess of Kruja info here: http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Albania/zogu.htm As with any online site, you can't always believe it, but he has sources. Imperial78

I concour with the comments of Imperial78, His Majersty did have a family tree which included royalty and was considered an aristocrat in Albania! He held the title of Bey, the equivalent to a Lord etc. in the UK. It is foolish to suppose he did not. He was not ignored by other royals; his sister married the son of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire and his wife was a Hungarian aristocrat! (129.234.4.10 22:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

An aristocrat is a commoner. Only the members of monarchial families are not. A "commoner" is not the same thing as "simple origin" or "humbe origin". СЛУЖБА (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Declared himself King?

HM King Zog did not declare himself King at a whim, it would be foolish to believe he did. He was declared King by the national assembly, this was done at the will of the people, if not he could not have succeeded. (Couter-revolutionary 18:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC))

• To be more exact he made himself declared as a king - Skysmith 16:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are trying to say. The people of Albania wanted King Zog as their King, there is no denying he was a popular monarch during his reign. He was not forced out be revolution but by enemy invaders. He was declared King, but not by himself, by the people, it was a constitutional monarchy. (Couter-revolutionary 21:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC))

Npov

I'm still getting used to doing things on wiki, and so obviously articles with various tags are of interest to me. could someone, preferably the person who put it there, explain what the NPOV problem is? after spending a couple hours a night roaming the various unfinished articles, lack of citations, clean-up efforts etc etc. it seems like half the backlog in any section is simply someone looking at the article and slapping a quick tag on it. articles that are marked to be wikified that should be stubs, outdated tags never removed etc etc. so if someone could explain why theres an NPOV tag with no explaination as why i'd appreciate it. Syzergy 02:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The fast and simple way of getting an answer to your question is for you to remove the NPOV tag, and see who hollers. Bill 19:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Monty Python references

Could someone name other Monty Python Zog references and possibly,if they were visual, download a photo(screencap)? New Babylon

Transgender references

"widespread intention of homosexuals to use Wikipedia as a way of legitimizing their adolescent behavior", says Lestrade! If this is a reason to edit an wikipedia article, than I suggest you to find another way, because you can't fight your homophobia through deleting others

The reason that I removed the transgender references is that they trivialize Wikipedia. There can be no justification for including such material in this Wikipedia article. The inclusion of references to popular culture, entertainment, and such trivia in Wikipedia articles has opened the gates for worse material such as this. Wikipedia has many articles that gratuitously contain adolescent references to homosexuality, gayness, and transvestitism. This is the result of the intention of people who have these immature interests to legitimize their own behavior and to make it acceptable by giving it maximum exposure.Lestrade 13:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Did this article contain any transgender references?--Couter-revolutionary 12:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

On September 17, 2006, at 13:16, I removed two sentences from the article. Those sentences asserted that the part of Zog was portrayed in a film by a female actress. This can be seen by viewing the article's history. It was my belief that the removed sentences were of no informational value and also that they were merely another example of the widespread intention of homosexuals to use Wikipedia as a way of legitimizing their adolescent behavior. Lestrade 17:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

• Righto, must have missed that, quite right.--Couter-revolutionary 17:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no authority here. If anyone thinks differently from me, they have a perfect right to reverse my deletion. I am only motivated to make Wikipedia a better and more informational encyclopedia and to purge it of such childishness as the fascination with women who dress like men, and vice versa.Lestrade 17:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

External links

A lot of these external links are frivolous. Do we really need a link to "Coin" etc? I propose weeding out the more frivolous ones.

Assassination attempt

I have a query about the assassination attempt that was made in 1931 in Vienna, where King Zog shot back at his assassins (which, incidentally, was featured in the film Aria, though the factual content of the episode as portrayed there may be disputed). Did King Zog kill or wound his would-be assassins, or did they simply flee and escape? Only I recall being told that Zog's claim to historical fame lay in the fact that he was the only monarch to have taken up arms against would-be assassins and fought back, which if true, makes him a fairly remarkable individual, doesn't it? Anyway, if additional details about the assassination attempt come to light, I'd like to hear more about this. Calilasseia 04:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I have not seem the film to which you are referring, the incident did, however occur. It is outlined in Jason Toames' book "King Zog; Self-Made Monarch", this is why I was able to include the details of which opera he was watching &c. I am not sure if he managed to kill the assassins, however, some of this bodyguards were killed during the incident, which, is why he had to start shooting himself. Yes, I thin you are right, Zog was a very remarkable man, not least for being able to fight off would-be assassins! His son was involved in a, not dissimilar incident in Botswana too!--Couter-revolutionary 09:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Sunnighill

Jason Tomes's book says Zog was at Sunninghill. This was changed on the website to Sunningdale, not sure why. I changed it back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.84.69 (talk) 02:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

I agree the latter is correct, so far as I know.--Couter-revolutionary 10:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I was the person who changed it to Sunningdale, because that's what it says here, but if you have a book source that says Sunninghill, that may well be more accurate. The boundary between Sunninghill and Sunningdale is a bit blurred anyway. Cordless Larry 17:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

King Zog lived at Sunninghill not Sunningdale. Just because something is on an internet site doesn't mean its true! He lived at a house called Forest Ridge in Bagshot Road which is in Sunninghill, but admittedly very near Sunningdale. The house is still there. This is confirmed here and there. (84.9.88.239 23:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC))

You are correct. --Counter-revolutionary 00:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Skanderbeg III

The article as it is today begin with: « Zog I, Skanderbeg III of Albania (born Ahmet Zogolli, later changed to Ahmet Zogu) (October 8, 1895 – April 9, 1961) was King of Albania from 1928 to 1939. He was previously Prime Minister of Albania between 1922 and 1924 and President of Albania between 1925 and 1928. »

Where does this name come from? I've never seen him as "Zog I Skanderbeg III". The article from FOTW given as a reference tells us he took the title "King Zogu Skanderbeg III". I've never seen it in other sources. I've always seen "Zog I" instead. For exemple on the picture of the coin in the article, it's written: ZOG I MBRETI I SHQIPTAREVET.

I would like to answer that question. When Zog changed his name from Zogolli to Zog(u), he just picked a common Albanian noun. Zog is the word for "bird". The -u suffix is just a definite article, literally "the bird" here, but also applied to last names indicating them as such. Any Albanian grammar or dictionary reference will confirm this. Due to that name, there was also the saying that when he left Albania, he "flew away". The Skanderbeg part just seems like ambitious wishful thinking. 2603:7000:6A01:D600:7993:4C9D:3D31:7804 (talk)

However, "Zogu Skanderbeg III" is not "Zog I Skanderbeg III". And this name must be explained by most serious sources than FOTW. Švitrigaila 11:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

And even the FOTW article is ambivalent, using "Zog I" as well as "Zogu Skanderbeg III". Anyway, I certainly agree with the above. Unless someone can find a credible source to the contrary, the "Skanderbeg III" part should be deleted altogether. -- Jao 12:45, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

The "Zogu Skanderbeg III" ref. is incorrect. He held two titles, one of Zog I, one of Skanderbeg III; thus it is "Zog I, Skanderbeg III" not "Zog I Skanderbeg III", without the comma. This is quite well documented if you've read about King Zog in any depth. --Counter-revolutionary 13:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

It was, of course, Zog I which he most commonly used. "ZOG I MBRETI I SHQIPTAREVET" merely means King Zog I in Albanian. --Counter-revolutionary 13:07, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

No, actually "Zog I mbreti i shqiptarevet" means Zog I, king of the Albanians"; the first I is the Roman numeral and the second is a genitive particle. Shqiperia is "land of the eagle", from shqiponja "eagle", and thus Shqiperia means Albania and "i shqiptarevet" means (masculine subject form of) "of the Albanians". 2603:7000:6A01:D600:7993:4C9D:3D31:7804 (talk)

I am glad for your answer. But my curiosity is not satified. On the three links you put, the first two ones ([2], [3]) are simply web forums, like Wikipedia's talk pages. I think they have no place in an encyclopedic article. The third one ([4]) says simply "Zog I [Skënderbeg III]" with no further explanation, like Wikipedia's article itself. It proves surely that you didn't invent this name, but it brings no light about this appellation, its origin or if it was official or just a nickname from a newspaper for example. I want to see an official text using it. Švitrigaila 10:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Zog saw himself, and rightly so (I believe) as Skanderbegs heir. He saw himself as the modern day Skanderbeg, not least because their families are related. Thus he wanted to reflect this in his title. --Counter-revolutionary 11:19, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think we all understand why he would want to use the title. We just want a reliable source that says that he actually did. If it is, as you say, quite well documented, then you are probably able to provide such a source? Preferrably in English, but Albanian or any other language will do if that's not possible. -- Jao 12:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I have done so! You could also see Jason H. Tomes "King Zog; Self Made Monarch of Albania" or Gwen Robyns official biography of Queen Geraldine. I really don't see what all the fuss is about! --Counter-revolutionary 12:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Great, if you add one of these sources to the references (or better yet, let them replace the three obscure sources that are presently there), I for one will be very satisfied. (The fuss is about reliable sources, since you ask.) -- Jao 15:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Skanderbeg II

...and finally, if Zog I was Skanderbeg III, who was Skanderbeg II? Švitrigaila 20:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, there you have me...I presume some random C16th chap...I really ought to look into that. Either that or he left a courtesey gap, as a sort of legal fiction, out of respect to the descendants of the Skanderbeg family - which may actually be correct, now that I think about it. --Counter-revolutionary 20:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Wilhelm zu Wied was called Skanderbeg II —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.13.113.80 (talk) 00:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Skanderbeg II was a title given to Alexander Thomson 1820-1899 by the Albanian government after his death in honour of his work for shqip ChilternGiant (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

"Zog, Not Scanderbeg"

A quick google throws up this from Time magazine in 1929:

Zog, Not Scanderbeg

Albanians recalled that at the time of King Zog's coronation last year, only the expressed intention of genuine Scanderbeg descendants to slit Zog's royal gullet dissuaded the new King from adopting the title of Scanderbeg II.

Note II, not III. I am tempted to remove the "Scanderbeg III" claim from the article unless more precise evidence from Tomes, Robyns or similar is forthcoming. jnestorius^(talk) 19:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, I've added a reference to a book that actually clears this up. "Skanderbeg II" was William, Prince of Albania. Google books only shows the index page of the relevant work, so, once again, if those whose have these books would care to cite accordingly, the rest of us would still be grateful. Curious that Zog's number should take account of William's reign, considering William was still alive and protesting his claim to the throne. jnestorius^(talk) 17:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

References

Dubious story

<<While in France, the Royal Family survived a German air raid during the invasion, reputedly[citation needed] because the entourage was travelling in a Mercedes-Benz identical to Adolf Hitler's (in fact it had been a wedding present from the German dictator). The effect of this was that none of the bombers had the nerve to fire on a car identical to the Führer's.>>

Are you sure? How do we know this? Did a German pilot actually give that as a reason, otherwise there is no way to know that was the reason? Could a German pilot see the car that close AND happen to know what Hitler's car looked like AND decide not to fire for that reason?

It is referenced in Jason Tomes' book. --Counter-revolutionary 10:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Still a dubious story. How does anyone know what the pilot thought? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.198.135 (talk) 03:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Geraldinealbania.jpg

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Images

• Why has the image of Zog, obviously fair use, on numerous levels, been deleted?--Counter-revolutionary (talk) 21:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• I also dont get that. New Babylon -and why do we need his sons adult photo on hear instead of Leka's own article? User:New Babylon 2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.91.217.80 (talk) 01:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

When was Zog deposed?

Was it 1939? or was it 1945. This is very confusing. GoodDay (talk) 19:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, between 1939 and 1943 there were two claimants to the Albanian throne: the exiled Zog, and Victor Emmanuel. The answer to your question will necessarily depend on how you view the legality of the 1939 events. -- Jao (talk) 22:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

It's a mind teaser. GoodDay (talk) 22:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Zog ceased to be the ruling King in 1939 (Good Friday, 1939). VE assumed the title King of Albania, it should be borne in mind, however, that he subsequently asked Zog for forgiveness for this and the House of Savoy asserts no claim to the title. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 23:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Formatting

Please note:

• Dates or no longer to be linked in Wikiepdia -- see MOS:SYL.
• It is incorrect to link plain English words and to make the same links repeatedly -- see WP:OVERLINK.

I have cleaned up the article twice to correct these linking errors. In the future, I will revert edits that make these mistakes. Ground Zero | t 20:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Death

What was the cause? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 10:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it was a stomach ulcer, it's almost a certainty he had cancer - but I understand he died before it was diagnosed. He had been in a coma prior to his death. The Grand Mufti of Algiers presided at the funeral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.126.240 (talk) 13:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

By 1972, when a Dictionary of Mnemonics I recall reading was published, his name was used in a palaeontological mnemonic in English, "King Zog caught syphilis and died", regarding Index Zone Fossils of the British Lower Carboniferous System. I accept that in the absence of proof he was syphilitic, it can be regarded as not literally true. See explanation on the page under Cultural References, cited to that book - which is also Gutenberged.Cloptonson (talk) 15:26, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Skanderbeg

His relationship to Skanderbeg is quite dubious, and the whole matter about him having blood ties to the national hero of Albania is more a ploy to establish his legitimacy as regent than anything else. He is at best the metaphoric heir to Skanderbeg, but by no means a descendant of his, for goodness sake. Skanderbeg was a northerner, a highlander; Zog's whole family was from the Tosk south. In fact, Zog's relationship to Albanians in general may be called into question. His original surname is Turkish (and I don't mean Islamic but specifically and naturally Turkish). It is more likely that his family is descended from Turkish implants who became denizens of Albania but were never ethnically Albanian in any complete sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.167.158 (talk) 04:26, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I not sure this is worth commenting on, but here goes. He was never a regent (as you write) - these were leaders of the 4 main religious communites. He never claimed to be a descendant of Skanderbeg, those descendants were living in Italy. The claim (whether true or not I cannot say) was that his mother's family (Toptani) were descended from Skanderbeg's sister, so not Skanderbeg's descendants (as you write). Zog was Gheg (not Tosk as you write). Both his parents were from the north (not the south as you write). Having a Turkish style name does not imply Turkish blood. In Britain many Welsh people adopted English style surnames but remained Welsh. Many immigrants to America adopted English style surnames. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.14.210.133 (talk) 01:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

My grandfather was a Zogist, and a Ghegg. He admired Zog but if I were to propose to him that Zog was a Ghegg, he would laugh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.47.58 (talk) 08:32, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Name

Someone has put "born Ahmet Leke Bej Zogolli, later changed to Ahmet Zogu". I thought that he was Amet Muhtar ZOgolli? The early coins say Amet and not Ahmet. Are we sure his middle name was Leke and not Muhtar, what is the source for Leke? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChilternGiant (talk • contribs) 02:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Knollwood

This is distorted. There is far more information about Knollwood, where Zog never lived, that about Parmoor House where he lived from 1941 to 1946. Most of the stuff about Knollwood is not about King Zog which this article is on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChilternGiant (talk • contribs) 02:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Date of birth: which calendar?

I've checked some of the other language versions but they all just repeat the statement that he was born on 8 October 1895. None of them acknowledge that the Gregorian calendar was not introduced to Albania till 1912. It's not clear whether Zog's birth date is according to the Gregorian calendar, or whatever they used in Albania prior to that - the Julian presumably, but possibly something else. Can anyone clarify this question? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 06:20, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Religion

My understanding is that he certainly did not convert to Christianity and that, despite marrying a Roman Catholic, his son was raised as a Muslim. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 09:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

That is correct, Islamic law at any rate allows Muslim men to marry Christian women or Jewish women without the requirement that the wife converts to Islam. Furthermore, King Zog remained Muslim and considered himself a Muslim till his death.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 09:42, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I add the Honours and awards

According to it wiki I add: National honours in Albania

• Albania Order of Besa
• Albania Order of Skanderbeg
• Albania Order of Bravery & Military Merit: First Class or Hero, breast star.

National honours

• Italy - Order of the Most Holy Annunciation, 1928 by Vittorio Emanuele III
• Italy - Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus, 1928
• Italy - Order of the Crown of Italy, 1928
• Netherlands - Order of the Gold Lion of the House of Nassau
• Egypt - Order of Muhammad Ali of Egypt
• Romania - Order of Carol I of Romania
• Kingdom of Yugoslavia - Order of the Karađorđe's Star
• France - Legion of Honour
• Greece - Order of the Redeemer
• Belgium - Order of Leopold
• Bulgaria - Order of Civil Merit
• Poland - Order of the White Eagle
• Belgium - Order of Leopold
• Czechoslovakia - Order of the White Lion
• Austria - Decoration of Honour for Services to the Republic of Austria
• Austrian Empire - Order of Franz Joseph

References

Talking about Zog's hobbies or talking about Zog's work as leader of Albania ?

You haven't write anything about what Zog did in Albania, what was improved and was worsened. You have given totally unimportant events from his life and laws that he made. Instead of saying for example tha Zogu unified the Albanian currency, calling it "Lek" in the honour of Alexander The Great, who is called by albanians Leka i Madh, you talk about animals laws. Is this thing normal ?!!! And what else did Zogu during his reign? Well, all the albanian citizens took passports, which guaranteed them free movement all over the world, created the National Bank, with Italian investments, built most of the roads and bridges that we have today in Albania, signed two political pacts with Italy, called the Tirana Treaties. Changed the albanian laws, taking as a model, Swiss, French and English laws. For the first time, after 500 hundred years, the gendarmerie controlled the whole country. Killings and robbery were minimized. During his reign, was built the center of Tirana, the government buildings, two great boulevards, and together with Tirana, also Durres, Shkoder, Vlora and Korce experienced a very prosperous period. Created a fantastic educational system, really organized and too much patriotic, while in todays albanian educational system both are lacking. And the most important, he created a real state, with real institutions, stable and recognized by foreign powers. And yes, it's true he became very depended toward italians, put censure over the newspapers and writers, and didn't support the development of sport. Also he wasn't ready to support the villagers against Beylers who on the other hand, worked against him. And don't forget, that on 28 November 1938, he inaugurated "Radio Tirana". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.65 (talk) 15:49, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Religion

An anonymous user keeps editing King Zog's religion from Sunni Islam' to 'irreligious'

Now, I realise King Zog's aim was to unite the various religious groups of Albania and modernise and reform both Albania and indeed the various religious (including muslim) groups in Albania, but that did not mean he was irreligious.

In the official biography of King Zog: "King Zog of Albania: Europe's Self-Made Muslim King" (my italics and bold text-little clue for you there as to his religion!) by Jason Tomes, it is stated categorically that King Zog was a Muslim (though not a particularly pious one), was born in a muslim family, was bought up a Muslim, educated in Constantinople, insisted his son was bought up a Muslim, and believed in the basic beliefs of Islam even if he was not particularly observant.

From the biography:

"Europe gained its latest Kingdom and its only Muslim King"

"Zog promoted a disproportionate number of Christians to compensate for the fact that he was a Muslim."

"A Muslim landowner" (in the section regarding his rise to power)

Regarding his marriage: "it could not be made religious without offending Muslim, Orthodox, or Catholic opinion"

"The new King of the Albanians, aided by his contacts with the Muslim dynasties"

He was also buried as a Muslim, with Muslim rites and according to Muslim practices as regards burial of the dead:

"Two days later...he was buried...with the Grand Mufti of Algiers officiating"

-more to the point, he was re-buried in Albania with Muslim rites, as was his son, Crown Prince Leka.

"Meanwhile, his religion remained inconspicuous. At Shepheard's Hotel, indeed, he was quite disgruntled when waiters assumed that the would not want food during Ramadan"

-showing he wasn't a particularly pious Muslim-but not observing Ramadan doesn't mean someone stops being a Muslim-they're just not a particularly good one, and you have various Muslims who do not observe Ramadan for whatever reason, being it ill-health. This sentence does show that he was at least considered by others to be a Muslim as well.

He also supported the pan-Islamist movement whilst in exile in Egypt:

"His pan-Islamist arguments usually culminated in a definite request: could he set up a training camp for a Albanian liberation army? Diligently pursued with the Egyptians, and taken up too with the Saudi Arabians, Jordanians and Libyans, the plan gave the King some sense of purpose and boosted the morale of his staff"

In "Besa: Muslims Who Saved Jews in World War II" by Norman H. Gershman, Crown Prince Leka, King Zog's son is interviewed. In his interview, on page 6, he states:

"I am the son of King Zog and my mother was Queen Geraldine. My father was the first and only Muslim king of a European nation".

In "Royalty Who Wait: The 21 Heads of Formerly Regnant Houses of Europe", by Olga S. Opfell; it says regarding Zog's son, Crown Prince Leka:

"Four years before (i.e. in 1958, whilst Zog was still alive and at his behest), he had been received into the Muslim faith"

Queen Geraldine's obituary in The Telegraph states:

"The marriage, a civil ceremony (King Zog was a Muslim, his bride a Roman Catholic)"

"An Israeli in Kosovo" by Michael J. Totten states:

"King Zog was a Muslim who married a Roman Catholic."

Furthermore:

• Many contemporary sources describe King Zog as a Muslim. For example:

A 1928 article in The Times speculating on rumours Zog was going to marry a Roman Catholic princess and convert to Catholicism (totally unfounded) describe Zog as 'a muslim'

The Britannica Book of the Year 1942 states of page 754:

"Marriage contracts in Islamic royal houses raise interesting points in Islamic law and usage. The marriage of King Zog of Albania to the Roman Catholic Countess Geraldine Apponyi (April 2, 1938) was celebrated by a purely civil ceremony This was consistent with Islamic law. Presumably the children were to be bought up as Muslim" (the writer's presumption was correct)

• he had strong ties to the Egyptian, Ottoman (his sister Sadije was married to an Ottoman Prince), and Saudi Arabian Royal families. He tried to marry his other sister Myjezen to the Egyptian former Crown Prince Mohammed Abdel Moneim as well, unsuccessfully.

He even spent parts of his exile in Egypt, where he was one of the founders of the the Muslim Brotherhood (though he used the group cynically and for his own ends-regaining his throne-rather than any pan-Islamic ideas.

In short, a modern-thinking, western-leaning Muslim, undoubtedly; but a Muslim nonetheless. If he was 'irreligious' he would not have insisted his son be received into the Muslim faith nor would he have maintained his Muslim religion on his marriage even though it caused him difficulty at the time (the Pope condemned the King and threatened to excommunicate Queen Geraldine). Bearing in mind the difficulties presented by his being the sole Muslim monarch in a country where every other Monarch was Christian, he should have had no problem repudiating Islam if he was irreligious, and he would not have maintained ties to the Muslim royal families of the Islamic world or try to marry his sisters off to foreign Muslim princes either, as none of this enhanced his standing or acceptance in the West-don't forget, he was viewed in many western courts as an upstart and not really a legitimate monarch.

JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 09:39, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Err, why have these sources been removed from the article and replaced with only three that state that he was irreligious??

JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 15:55, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

This may be related to the question of religion: From the Maryborough Chronicle (newpaper), 25 February 1938:

" King Zog's Wedding Postponed VIENNA, Wednesday. — It is learned from Tirana that King Zog's wedding has been postponed until May because the Papal dispensation has not arrived. "Lathamibird (talk) 01:04, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

And two weeks later in the 9 March 1938 edition: " King Zog's Marriage VATICAN CITY. Monday.— The Pope consented to the marriage of King Zog and Countess Apponyi. Planned to take place on April 27. The Albanians feel that the Papal consent will strengthen King Zog's position throughout Albania." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lathamibird (talk • contribs) 01:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Article Title

Should this not be "Zog of Albania" in line with WP polices and MoS. The example given is Anne, Queen of Great Britain only. Why? --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)? According to the Sovereigns section on that page, point 4, the title should probably be either Zog I of Albania or, if the numeral is not desired, then Zog, King of Albania (but it seems in this case the numeral was in official use, so the first one is appropriate). Exceptions are allowed, however. I don't think I've heard him called "Zog of Albania", far more common is just King Zog, so if we were going to make an exception, that would be my suggestion. W. P. Uzer (talk) 06:37, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Zog I of Albania sounds correct then. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 10:30, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone object to this title change? It would need someone who's an administrator to do it, I think. W. P. Uzer (talk) 05:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Keep it as "Zog I of Albania", as he did use that regnal number. GoodDay (talk) 18:30, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree with GoodDay, whilst I posed this question many years ago, he plainly did use and was known by the regnal number. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

A late reply but his title was "King of the Albanians," not "King of Albania" because he had claims to be the legitimate ruler of Albanians outside the borders of Albania proper (in Montenegro, Kosovo, and northern Greece.) Pascalulu88 (talk) 00:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Death

Zog's death is discussed both in the "Life in Exile" section and the very short "Death" section. The information is largely the same and redundant between the two sections. Can these be combined into an "Life in Exile and Death" section? (18 Feb 2015). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.95.126.175 (talk) 14:56, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Seeing no objection, I've made the changes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.95.126.175 (talk) 16:23, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Zog I/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I've assessed this article as B-class. The main reason that this article cannot at present be given an A-class rating is the lack of references. If someone adds footnotes or proper references to hard literature (see Wikipedia's Good article criteria), I think it would deserve to be nominated for GA assessment immediately, and potentially upgraded to A-class. The information on Zog's political life, in particular, is excellent: clear, detailed, well-linked and (to my knowledge) accurate. Congratulations! However, the information on his life after being deposed is somewhat piecemeal, and could do with being reorganised and rewritten so that it flows more easily. -- TinaSparkle 11:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Substituted at 22:08, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Zog and Ian Fleming

I notice an uncited statement at the end of the section Cultural references that "During WWII, Fleming had been assigned with the task of escorting Zog when Albania was invaded." The chronology does not support this. Albania was invaded in April 1939, Fleming entered the employ of naval intelligence (as a civilian) in May, was commissioned into the RNVR in July, and WWII at least from the British-German POV started in September of 1939. (He may have been assigned at a period following our declaration of war when he was London based.) No mention of Fleming and Zog appears in the Wikipedia biography of Fleming. I would raise a citation need and rephrase the sentence in line with the chronology.Cloptonson (talk) 23:13, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

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Questionable source on opening borders to Jews, needs more citations

This statement:

"In 1938, as a result of a request from his advisor and friend Constantino Spanchis, Zog opened the borders of Albania to Jewish refugees fleeing persecution in Nazi Germany"

Is using citation which leads to this personal website: http://www.besathepromise.com/bios.html

I don't think it is a reliable source. Are there any more reliable sources? Aleks4775 (talk) 15:16, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 14 March 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move, as the arguments in support are stronger per WP:SOVEREIGN. However, given the arguments that SOVEREIGN may not truly reflect consensus, if SOVEREIGN in changed with a reasonable time frame this move should be reassessed as no consensus and reverted to the status quo. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 04:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

---

Zog I of Albania → Zog I – Per WP:SOVEREIGN, bullet point 3, we avoid the country disambiguator where it is not neccessary. He appears to be the only monarch named Zog. Векочел (talk) 01:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 15:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Politics, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Albania, WikiProject Royalty and Nobility, WikiProject Biography/Politics and government, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Military history, WikiProject Military history, and WikiProject Military history have been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 01:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support Per WP:TITLEDAB, we avoid unnecessary precision. This is also consistent with WP:NCROY. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• If he's the only monarch named Zog, why is he Zog I? If he himself preferred to use a numeral to distinguish him from no other Zogs, certainly we can use "of Albania" for the same purpose. Srnec (talk) 03:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Reliable sources mostly use the numeral (e.g. approx 4x more google scholar hits for "Zog I" Albania than for "Zog of Albania"). Also note that there are far fewer hits for "Zog I of Albania"; most sources refer to him as "Zog I, king of Albania" or "King Zog I", providing an additional reason not to keep "of country" in our title. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose. It is slightly comical that we are thinking about using a superfluous numeral to distinguish this Zog from other Zogs while removing the more logical disambiguator "of Albania". Srnec (talk) 20:13, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom: no disambiguation necessary, per WP:SOVEREIGN, and uncontested redirect for the proposed target since 2004. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:44, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support per Britannica which doesn't even list the current title as an alternative. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Britannica, which contrary to the misrepresentation given above, actually gives the title as "Zog I, King of Albania". Not sure what "Zog I" is, but sounds like the first phase of a conspiracy theory.Walrasiad (talk) 05:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  The "King of Albania" is just a sub title. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Support: Wiki policy-based arguments mentioned by other editors above make a convincing case here. As far as I know, he’s the only “Zog” with such notoriety. The second part of the title - “of Albania” - really isn’t necessary as a result.

The usage of the numeral ‘Zog I ‘ is important, because the word ‘Zog’ on its own means ‘bird’ in Albanian. The numeral helps to differentiate between the bird and the figure himself. “Of Albania” is also rich, considering the fact that he was hated by many Albanians and ousted from power multiple times (and rightfully so) - then again, him being a traitor probably has no bearing on the name of a Wikipedia article. Botushali (talk) 06:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

There's a lot of other meanings of Zog. There's no indication "I" is a numeral, nor that "Zog I" is a person, much less a monarch. The term "of Albania" is there a concise version of "King of Albania", which is what make him WP:RECOGNIZABLE to readers. Searching for "Zog I" without "king" or "Albania" leads to absolutely zero hits for this figure in searches. Definitely not his WP:COMMMONNAME. Walrasiad (talk) 10:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

It is unsurprising that works about Zog I include the words king and Albania somewhere in their text. Excluding these words in a search tells us nothing about the proximity of these words to Zog I. The conclusion from such a search that these words are part of a name string is false. Such a search does however, tell us that Zog I when used in sources is about the subject of this article - unambiguously. Such a search actually affirms the proposed move. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

To be fair, “Zog” having a lot of meanings is a fair point - some funny ones in there for sure. Nonetheless, there’s no other historical or current monarch called Zog, which according to WP:SOVEREIGN does not require a disambiguation such as “of Albania”. Most bibliography will talk about Zog in the context of Albania without directly using the phrase “Zog I of Albania”. I wouldn’t even mind “Ahmet Zogolli” (his actual name), but that’s not his WP:COMMONNAME.

If Zog I on its own is not clear enough, perhaps we could have some sort of alternative that will still make it clear who he is? If “Zog I of Albania” is kept, then the ordinal is unnecessary. It seems in this case it’ll be a decision based on the strength of different policies in comparison to each other. There seem to be some conflicting points on WP:SOVEREIGN as to how a case like Zog should be handled. Botushali (talk) 13:43, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems implausible to think that users of the English-language Wikipedia would ever be confused between the name of the Albanian king and the Albanian word for bird. As for the addition of the country, it's common to include it, and per policy we seek to reflect common usage. Forms including the country, such as "King Zog of Albania", "Zog I of Albania", "Zog, King of the Albanians", and others, are easily seen in innumerable sources: National Portrait Gallery, US State Department, the British Museum, Encyclopedia Britannica, historical encyclopedias, biographies, journal articles, the office of the Crown Prince and Princess, Kingsley, news articles, etc. Even Monty Python famously gave him a shout-out — twice. I don't think there's any reasonable doubt that the geographic clarifier is indeed common. ╠╣uw [talk] 17:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The article would just become harder to locate. Dimadick (talk) 10:44, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  The irony of this rationale is that one has to type Zog I before typing of Albania. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose the article should be renamed Ahmed Zogu since he was a short-lived, self-proclaimed monarch. This is the case with other short-lived self-proclaimed monarchs like Jean-Bédel Bokassa. Plumber (talk) 16:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  I'd like to see ngrams on Zog I vs Ahmed Zogu. Curbon7 (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

  Here [5] is the graph. "Zog I" and "Ahmed Zogu" are even, although "King Zog" is overwhelmingly more common than both. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 01:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

  So much for the assertion that Ahmed Zogu is the WP:COMMONNAME. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:37, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

• Move to Ahmed Zogu. Consistent with other articles on self-prolclaimed monarchs: Agustín de Iturbide, not "Agustín I of Mexico", Jean-Bédel Bokassa, not "Bokassa I of Central Africa", Jean-Jacques Dessalines not "Jacques I of Haiti". UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 01:29, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The recent change to NCROY, which is what seems to have prompted this and other requests to remove of the country from various monarchs' article titles, doesn't have strong consensus support in practice, based on various similar RMs that have resulted in retaining or adding the country. Both there and here, the presence of the country clarifier is important for meeting our policy obligations, not only to find the best balance of our WP:CRITERIA but also to prioritize the interests of readers over those of editors and specialists, fit an encyclopedic register, etc. I see nothing to suggest that removing the country in any way serves our readers' interests (and Britannica shows the clarifier "King of Albania" with its title). ╠╣uw [talk] 19:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

  If you want to challenge the change to the newly agreed naming conventions, then that should be done at the page of the releavant guideline. Until that is done, however, the guideline remains in place. Particularly so, given that it is also bringing the names into line with WP:AT, being concise and more commonly used (Zog I vastly exceeds Zog I of Albania in ngrams: [6]). This !vote here should be ignored in the close, as it does not comply with policy and guideline.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

  You are correct that "Zog I" exceeds "Zog I of Albania", but "Ahmet Zogu" exceeds both. [7] UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 17:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  But this ngran you provided shows that he is much, much more commonly referred to as Zog, not Zogu. Perhaps we should title the article King Zog, since it is reasonably the WP:COMMONNAME and, while we do not normally prefix with king, WP:NCROY does not preclude doing so. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

  I was simply pointing out that arguing that the page should be moved to "Zog I" on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME doesn't work because another name is more common. That doesn't affect my argument, which is based on WP:CONSISTENT, not WP:COMMONNAME. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 16:14, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

  Amakuru: Those counts are basically meaningless for comparisons like this. First, shorter forms will almost always be vastly more frequent than longer ones since it's normal to shorten or abbreviate a name after it's established. Second, omitting the geographic clarifier is natural in sources where that geographic context has already been established (e.g., no need to say "of Albania" in a book or article about Albania), but Wikipedia as a general-interest encyclopedia has no such context to rely on.

  As for guidelines: yes, we do try to apply them whenever we reasonably can, but they're not sacrosanct. If an RM related to a guideline (or as here, a dubious change to a guideline) fails to reach consensus, that's fine: it's a valuable metric and form of feedback that can then help prompt a reappraisal of the guideline and support efforts to make it better and more effective. That's less likely to happen if we simply approve all such moves uncritically on the grounds that the guideline exists. ╠╣uw [talk] 19:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support for the reasons set out above Counter-revolutionary (talk) 14:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with Dimadick it would make it harder to locate Arberian2444 (talk) 17:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.