Talk:Yongle Emperor

Citations

Almost all of the citations were from a book report in the Tsai book (in the Further Readings section) that I have since lost. If anyone wants to take the time to complete them, by all means. I spruced up the language a bit, but someone will have to do it...

--72.204.49.209 (talk) 06:05, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

On January 31, 2005 User:219.77.188.39 added the following comment to the article, right after ("mother unknown"):

It's totally wrong//his mother's family name was SHUO 硕. She was a Korean girl from Korea. Zhudi(Yongle) built a temple named GANENSI (感恩寺) in Nanjing for her mother. Later Zhudi (Yongle) asked Korea (朝鲜) Dynasty to send the seven beautiful girls to be a concubine to him. He loved these Korean girls more than the girls from other tribes.

I reverted this edit, since it didn't properly fit into the article. It would be good if someone could fact-check this discussion and edit the article appropriately. --MarkSweep 22:00, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Spelling Error

The phrase "sent a memorial" should be replaced with "sent a memorandom". 121.44.86.171 (talk) 06:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Fixed, but new sections should be put at the bottom of the page, not the top. Dougweller (talk) 17:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

He wasn't right, y'know. — LlywelynII 18:40, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Confusing Grammar Error

The article says "Yongle's economic, educational, and military reforms provided unprecedented benefits for the people, but his despotic style of government and set up spy agency." This is a sentence fragment, and it is difficult to determine what the second half of the sentence means. Remilo (talk) 02:23, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Yep

The reason I didn't put the mother is because of the long debate over the identity of his biological mother. I don't yet think there is (or ever will be) a definitive answer.

Occupation of Annam

Yongle's impact on the sinicization of Annam is overstated. The Ming could only occupy Annam for 10 years. They were defeated and chased out of Annam by Le Loi, the founder of the Le dynasty. Also, Annam refers to current northern and (part of) central Vietnam.

Reference. Viet Nam Su Luoc, vol. 1, Tran Trong Kim.

---

Some Korean nationalists claim that Yongle was half Korean. But their isn't any evidence for it, indeed, he was much more likely full Han Chinese.

death of Fang Xiaoru

can anybody tell me the source for the story of Fang Xiaoru writing 'usurper' in blood as he dies?

Daisy Dunn

Exploration of the world

The purpose of Zheng He's voyages was not exploration (though they have been erroneously compared to European exploration often in literature). Yongle wished to expand the Chinese tributary system and project Chinese power abroad. Zheng He did not find any places that were not already known about from China's past trade, nor were these voyages concerned with trade (in fact, trade was prohibited on these missions, though some took place regardless). Each voyage was used to show off China's military might and to threaten other states into paying tribute, which in no way covered even a portion of the costs of the missions. After Yongle's reign the voyages were abruptly stopped by the Confucian bureaucracy who had been opposed to the missions from the start due to the economic strain they put on China. I may update this article in the future with sources, but really anyone can do it. Just look at any literature on the subject published in the last ten years, or any current college world history book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xandarg (talk • contribs) 05:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Small Nitpick

There is a discrepancy on the arrival/departure of Deshin Shekpa -- it is listed as both 17th May, 1408 CE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Missaneurysm (talk • contribs) 11:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Mingshi- the English online version?

Mingshi is the official history book of the Ming dynasty. I want to read this historiography which is translated into Enlish in the Internet. I had tried to find something like this but I found nothing. Can anyone here give me the link of the English online version of Mingshi? Thanks so much,--Redflowers (talk) 09:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

According to my knowlegde a full translation of the Mingshi in a western language doesn't exist. The only partial translation I know of is Taylor, R(omeyn), Basic annals of Ming Tʻai-tsu, San Francisco (Chinese Materials Center) 1975. It's a translation of juan 1-3 of the Mingshi. Guss2 (talk) 11:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Yongle's mother

No info on her?--Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

We don't really know much about her, as officially his mother is the Empress Ma, although some scholars say that his mother was a concubine. Vyselink (talk) 22:01, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

The DEFAULTSORT in the category

The DEFAULTSORT in the category should be Yongle, Emperor instead of Emperor, Yongle. It is because Yongle is the era name while Emperor is just because he is an emperor.{{editsemiprotected}}

 Done Not sure who did it or when, but the current defaultsort matches what the request above asks for. --RL0919 (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Eh, emperor is his name [that we use] and Yongle is an adjective describing the time this particular emperor lived. The closest you could get to this in English is something like "The Elizabethan Queen" or "The Victorian Queen". So yeah, Yongle isn't his name but it's "Yongle Emperor" together, not "Emperor, Yongle". — LlywelynII 08:29, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Fate of Fang Xiao Ru's family

Well, one who ever reads of Fang cannot avoid coming across sayings that Fang's entire family within 10th vicinity are executed. However it is not universally accepted as a confirmed fact by true historians, as far as I know. There were records of his argument with Zhu Di, but the actual fulfillment of that only occurred in not very serious neither contemporary tales. According to official records of the government, Fang's family members in 2nd or 3rd vicinity (i don't remember exactly) were pardoned many years later. So the guy was killed at once of course, but what happened to his family did not seem to be exactly similar.

Yongle's diplomacy with southeast asia

appointment of governor over luzon

[commented out unhelpfully presented links above.] — LlywelynII 08:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I recently demonstrated that the "Chinese governor of Luzon" is a myth originating from mistakes made by Western historians more than a century ago. The myth has been widely repeated in English-language secondary sources (including the many cited above) and has lately also been embraced and embellished in China, but this should not detract from the fact that it has no basis whatsoever in premodern Chinese sources. Please see my essay "Ko Ch'a-lao/Xu Chailao: A Mythical Ming Chinese Governor of Luzon" I recommend removing all references to a Ming Luzon governor from this article and the articles on Luzon and its history. - Shao-yun Yang 2605:A000:1117:E2EB:6DC0:EE84:32EE:B8 (talk) 01:13, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

miscellaneous

[commented out more unhelpfully presented links above.] — LlywelynII 08:41, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

other

Yereebel (talk) 06:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

[ditto.] — LlywelynII 08:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not going to delete that, but I am going to comment them out so we don't have to look at that mess. In the future, (a) pick fewer and (b) turn those URLs into links and use descriptive titles. I very much doubt anyone other than you will use any of those if it's (i) such an obscure point of his reign and (ii) so unhelpfully presented. — LlywelynII 08:40, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

"The Yongle Emperor", not "Yongle" or "Emperor Yongle"

I know this is hard to get in English but, with these Ming emperors, do try to remember that Chinese names during the time were very complicated; the naming taboo banned the use of the guy's personal name; the name we use is something similar to "The Elizabethan Queen" or "The Clintonian President" – you just don't say things like "Queen Elizabethan enjoyed executing relatives" or "Clintonian enjoyed french fries".

You can use the temple names that way – "Chengzu ordered the execution of everyone who had even heard of the village and burned all records of its existence" – even though it's a little morbid to do so; but "Yongle" should be written as "The Yongle Emperor" every time and not "Yongle" or "Emperor Yongle". At the same time, you don't have to say "during the reign of Yongle": since it is the name of the era, it's correct to say "During the Yongle reign..." or "Throughout the Yongle era..."

That's nitpicky, but since people who don't know much about this whole thing come through and use these articles to learn about the culture, we should do what we can to keep it correct. — LlywelynII 08:40, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Military accomplishments section

The part about the Mongols seems to need some work. On one hand, it seems a bit strange to state that the Mongol princes needed to be compelled to enter the Ming tribute system. After all, a few decades later the Tumu Crisis was caused by the Mongols not being allowed to "pay" as much "tribute" as they would habe liked to.

Also the conclusion seems somewhat non-standard. My impression from skimming over the Cambridge History of China was that Yongle's campaigns did not really achieve all that much. This also seems quite consistent with the fact that they had to be repeated again and again. Yaan (talk) 18:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Diplomatic and military conduct

Yongle was shocked at Ryukyuans castrating innocent people in order to send eunuchs as tribute, he was advised to tell Ryukyu Kingdom not to send eunuchs again

http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps07_093.pdf

http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/showfile.asp?pubid=676&type=2

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1317152

Yongle Emperor tells his officers not to kill innocents after succesfully invading Vietnam, even the young men from rebel families.

http://epress.nus.edu.sg/msl/entry/1078?hl=%22Jiao-zhi%22

05:26, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

References

Minorities

http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.org/editorial.php?issue=005

Questionable sources

In the "Legacy" section, several statements about his cruelty (execution of 2,800 palace ladies; killing of women at his death) are sourced to "李朝實錄太宗實錄" and "李朝實錄世宗實錄" respectively (footnotes 46/47; I suppose this translates to "Annals of the Joseon Dynasty, Taejong records" and "Annals of the Joseon Dynasty, Sejong records" respectively.) These seem to be primary sources, of unknown status and reliability. No chapter and verse are given (modern editions? Page numbers?). The content was added in parts (then unsourced) back in 2007 by an editor who made only a few edits [1], and then expanded with these two footnotes in 2009 by another user [2]. I have not been able to verify any of this in independent, reliable secondary sources. This [3] and [4] Daily Mail article appears to be reflecting a different version of the same story, based on some BBC documentary. Now, obviously the Daily Mail isn't a reliable source either, but the fact that the story is so markedly different (the concubine wasn't "poisoned" but had committed suicide; it wasn't 2,800 palace ladies that were killed but 2,800 persons altogether, including eunuchs; it wasn't systematic "slow slicing" but stabbing to death...) means something is dubious here. These stories need to be documented with exact references to the original sources and put in context through reliable secondary sources, or they have to be removed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:02, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Yongle Emperor/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article doesn't mention Yongle's recruitment of nearly 3,000 women from Korea to be his concunbines and their subsequent slaughter by him at a later date. More can be found here: http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-563688/Revenge-evil-emperor-Mass-slaughter-Beijings-Forbidden-City.html The History Channel International just did a 2 hour show on the Forbidden City and it went waaay into it. --Craigketo (talk) 04:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 04:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 11:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)