Talk:State of Palestine

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Undo the revert of Dovidroth[edit]

@Dovidroth has reverted my changes. I suggest we undo the revert.

It might be worth noting that Dovidroth has been banned from the Palestine/Israel Conflict topic for 90 days: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Dovidroth#Notice_that_you_are_now_subject_to_an_arbitration_enforcement_sanction

My changes can be summarized as:

  1. Clarify that Gaza is still under occupation.
  2. Clarify that the blockade is supported by Egypt and not an independent blockade led by Egypt.
  3. Clarify that the *native* Arab population rejected partition, and not, for example, the Arab Jewish population who had emigrated from Iraq.
  4. Clarify the widely accepted motivation behind the rejection of the partition plan.

I suggest we reincorporate my changes. DMH43 (talk) 20:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly (personal opinion obviously), as one of the three users who received topic bans just received a reduction in their topic ban, some temperance here may be recommended as appeals are still active, and the teeth are rather loose in the gum.
That said, it's up to you - I'd like it if you outline your proposed reverts below just so the rest of us can have clarity on what you're looking to restore. Mistamystery (talk) 21:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @Mistamystery, I had given a breakdown of the changes above, should I provide direct quotes instead? Users can see the revert (which I am proposing to undo) directly in the link I provided. The page hasn't changed since the revert, so the diff is still up to date. DMH43 (talk) 23:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed change 1:
The Gaza Strip was governed by Egypt but conquered by Israel in 1967. Israel governed the region until it withdrew in 2005. Hamas seized power after winning the 2006 Palestinian legislative election. The Gaza Strip has since been blockaded by Israel and Egypt.
to:
The Gaza Strip was governed by Egypt but conquered by Israel in 1967. Israel governed the region until it withdrew in 2005; although it is still considered to occupy Gaza.[1][2][3] Hamas seized power after winning the 2006 Palestinian legislative election. The Gaza Strip has since been blockaded by Israel with support from Egypt.
DMH43 (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed change 2:
This Partition Plan was accepted by the Jews but rejected by the Arabs.
to:
This Partition Plan was accepted by the Jews but rejected by the native Arab population on the basis that in addition to the Arabs forming a two-thirds majority, they owned a majority of the lands.[4][5]
DMH43 (talk) 18:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just left the link to the partition plan for the details around it as it is not directly relevant to SoP. Selfstudier (talk) 15:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Human rights in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories". Amnesty International. Retrieved 2023-12-24.
  2. ^ "Gaza: Israel's 'Open-Air Prison' at 15 | Human Rights Watch". 2022-06-14. Retrieved 2023-12-24.
  3. ^ "SPOKESPERSON's DAILY HIGHLIGHTS". United Nations. Archived from the original on 8 May 2012. Retrieved 29 April 2012.
  4. ^ Eugene Rogan (2012). The Arabs: A History – Third Edition. Penguin. p. 321. ISBN 978-0-7181-9683-7.
  5. ^ Benny Morris (2008). 1948: a history of the first Arab-Israeli war. Yale University Press. pp. 66, 67, 72. ISBN 978-0-300-12696-9. Retrieved 24 July 2013. p.66, at 1946 "The League demanded independence for Palestine as a "unitary" state, with an Arab majority and minority rights for the Jews." ; p.67, at 1947 "The League's Political Committee met in Sofar, Lebanon, on 16–19 September, and urged the Palestine Arabs to fight partition, which it called "aggression", "without mercy". The League promised them, in line with Bludan, assistance "in manpower, money and equipment" should the United Nations endorse partition." ; p. 72, at December 1947 "The League vowed, in very general language, "to try to stymie the partition plan and prevent the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine

Requested move 5 March 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 14:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

State of Palestine → Palestine (state) – The vast majority of country titles aren't named like "State of X" but rather just "X". In Palestine's case, it should also have the parenthetical "(state)" to disambiguate with Palestine (region). JDiala (talk) 16:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most places are not in Palestines position. Slatersteven (talk) 16:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There have been previous attempts to move this to the simple 'Palestine', an idea I sympathize with. The difficulty is the alleged ambiguity, that your proposal tries to resolve and once again I have a certain amount of sympathy with the idea. I think the principal problem is that the current framing is by now commonname, for better or worse, and unlikely to change until such time as acceptance into the UN as a full member state. Selfstudier (talk) 16:20, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ISO 3166 country name for interest. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose per WP:NATURALDAB (as per Republic of Ireland, Republic of the Congo etc. where NatDabs are preferred), although sympathetic to the cause, and there could be a case making this primary. The current is recognised as its full name, and a natural disambiguation, for the current situation where this is not primary and the region as another contender for the name. DankJae 21:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • The case of Ireland and Congo — Ireland is a region, where both Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland stands as different countries or states. Same is in case of Congo, where both Democratic Republic of the Congo and Republic of the Congo are separate country. But in case of Palestine. As a country it is only "State of Palestine". No other part of Palestine region is considered as another country. In the region of Palestine, only one country of its name stands, which is State of Palestine.
    • The redirected name should be just Palestine and its disambiguation page should be Palestine (disambiguation). This is better I think
    Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 12:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Current title is clearly more natural. I honestly just think we should do what Arabic Wikipedia does and have one article titled State of Palestine for the entity, and one article titled Palestine for the region. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 22:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, per common name. It is similar to the proposal to move Land of Israel to Israel (region). Better to use WP:NATURALDAB. --Yorkporter (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per DankJae, plus, State of Palestine is the title often used politically, and this title works anyhow so I don't see much reason to move TappyTurtle [talk | contribs] 03:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2024[edit]

I want to edit this one because I want to change it to the Palestinian one. It would improve better if I did it AnnoyinAyman (talk) 07:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you. Jamedeus (talk) 07:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 March 2024[edit]

The last part of the beginning of the page (the text which says "the Palestinian government collapsed") links to Palestinian National Authority, specifically to the part "#2024_government_collapse". Although due to a recent edit, that part of the page no longer exists, since it has been renamed. It should now link to the "#2024_mass_resignation" part. SewSown (talk) 23:29, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 06:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

State of Palestine vs Palestinian Occupied Territories Palestinian_National_Authority[edit]

Just want to make sure that there is awareness of the existence of two Wikipedia articles that seem to refer to the same entity. Each says they are different than the other, yet shows the same national flag and coat of arms. Geographically, one consists of the West Bank and Gaza, whereas the other is only the West Bank. FeralOink (talk) 17:54, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Gaza Strip is not controlled or occupied by Israel and from 2007 to the start of the Israeli invasion 2023, the Gaza Strip has been politically and militarily controlled entirely by Hamas. So that is why one topic (State of Palestine) is about both locations while occupied territories almost entirely focuses on the West Bank. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the other article being referred to is the Palestinian National Authority then that also shows Gaza in its infobox. That apart, Gaza is considered by the international community to be occupied. The territories considered as occupied are equal to the territories claimed by the SoP. That the government of Palestine is split in two pro tem is irrelevant. Selfstudier (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m assuming it’s not. Palestinian Occupied Territories redirects to Palestinian territories, so I assume the question was regarding why Palestinian territories and State of Palestine are two different articles. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 18:33, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PT is also equal to OPT and SoP, territory wise. Anyway, see OP's contributions. Selfstudier (talk) 18:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Selfstudier, what exactly is wrong with my contributions to Wikipedia?! You said, "Anyway, see OP's contributions." I am OP. I am editing in good faith. Perhaps I misunderstood, but if not, no casting aspersions like that please. I do apologize for this mess here, and if y'all want, you can just hat the entire thing or stick it in the archives for the article.--FeralOink (talk) 07:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I never said there was anything wrong with your contributions and I did not cast any aspersions. I was inviting another editor to examine your contributions in order to determine which other article was being referred to. Selfstudier (talk) 08:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ooops, I meant to say Palestinian National Authority not occupied territories. That article begins with the following:
"The Palestinian National Authority, commonly known as the Palestinian Authority and officially the State of Palestine..."
That seems the same as the title of this article. If not, it needs to be edited.--FeralOink (talk) 16:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If there is no problem with this article, then we can have a discussion at the PNA article, agreed? Selfstudier (talk) 17:23, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If this is about another page, it should be discussed there, and (no) they are to the same article as far as I can tell, but there are overlaps. Slatersteven (talk) 17:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I see what you mean, Steven. You're saying that it would possibly be the Palestinian National Authority article that needs to have State of Palestine deleted, not a name change to this article. That is reasonable. I will leave this page alone for now. Thank you!--FeralOink (talk) 07:37, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A "Country"[edit]

Why does the opening sentence call Palestine a country? It's only recognized as such by 139 of the 193 UN member states. The sentence was correct for decades. Why has it now been edited incorrectly? Please undo Joséthewikier's revision. His edit description strikes me as quite goofy and biased as well, comparing Palestine to much more widely-recognized countries. Palestine is a partially recognized state in the Middle East, not a country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 12:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See the talk page arrive for every answer as to why. Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Selfstudier (talk) 12:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are we going to have de to relitigate this, OK, you do not have to be recognized by the majority of countries to be called a country. Slatersteven (talk) 12:27, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The most recent discussion, this comes up every so often, the consensus is for "state" I think, if not it should be, as that is the most common usage. Selfstudier (talk) 12:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

BUt as your edit summary pointed out its a distinction with out a difference, this is not the article title. Slatersteven (talk) 12:37, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And that discussion seems too limited. Slatersteven (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't actually mind personally, they are effectively the same thing, I just think the more common usage is state, for obvious reasons. Selfstudier (talk) 12:40, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am unsure it is, its called the state of Palestine, be this is not a name question. I think we need an RFC to establish a clear consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why? I do not object to country and neither do you, so unless someone else, preferably EC qualified, does, not a problem. Selfstudier (talk) 12:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I object to it. I am making an edit request for the line to be changed to say "state." Uchiha Itachi 25 (talk) 07:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Object on what grounds? As a non EC editor you can make edit requests but they need to be sourced. So not done. Selfstudier (talk) 11:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both this article and Palestinian National Authority say they refer to the State of Palestine. That is ambiguous. See my comment in the talk page section immediately preceding this for direct quote from the other WP article. I am not trying to relitigate anything or argue, just noting ambiguity of calling two different articles the same thing.--FeralOink (talk) 16:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have already done that in the previous section, has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. Selfstudier (talk) 17:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We did not invest it, the Palestinians did. Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Best not to respond to non EC editors and to delete their comments unless it is clearly an edit request. Selfstudier (talk) 17:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uchiha Itachi 25, Palestine is not a country because......with an argument based on reliable sources. That is a better way to do it. Does 139/193 mean it is not a country? I don't know. Why do ISO treat it as a country in the international standards? Again, I don't know. Do other reliable sources refer to it as a country. I have no idea. The article Country may help you formulate an argument that follows the guidelines WP:EDITXY guidelines which has more likelihood of success (and not being deleted because it is not a well-formed edit request by a non-extendedconfirmed user). Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Idk what all the fuss is about tbh, could people objecting to country (or state) please specify on what basis, with reference to reliable sources. Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is a bit confusing. Does Uchiha Itachi 25 object to Wikipedia referring to Taiwan as a country (rather than a province of the PRC) or is it Palestine specifically? What is a country anyway? I have no idea. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a non EC editor, they may file sourced edit requests and they will be considered, until then, nothing really to discuss. Selfstudier (talk) 11:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 April 2024[edit]

Palestine is bordered by Israel to the north and west, not to the north and east as stated. ASpoor (talk) 10:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct, fixed. Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 April 2024[edit]

– Per WP:COMMONNAME and the upcoming UNSC vote on Friday to have Palestine upgraded as a UN member, I suggest this article be renamed to simply "Palestine" like all other country articles in this Wikipedia. It doesn't make sense to use Ireland as the Republic of Ireland or the Republic of China as two articles with one on the mainland and the other on Taiwan. Even the Google Trends uses Palestine more than the State of Palestine itself. Kindly keep this debate civil. Silence of Lambs (talk) 00:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What impact would UN recognition have on the name of the article? Remsense诉 00:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Citing WP:COMMONNAME makes no sense here. The page is at a WP:NATDIS of "Palestine". A move request would have to address WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, not COMMONNAME. Further, the country Ireland is at Republic of Ireland, and the country Republic of China is at Taiwan, so I don't understand those analogies. CMD (talk) 01:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning oppose. The title has long been a disambiguation page because there are various regions with differing borders that have been called "Palestine" historically, and moving this article to that title would appear to denigrate the significance of all previous forms. BD2412 T 01:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose While I am sympathetic to the idea, this has been discussed formally several times before and informally as well. Palestine is presently a disambiguation and the background to that is all the reasons why this move never succeeds. I would be willing to look at this favorably if SoP is accepted as a UN member state, as that would lead to substantive changes across wiki and not necessarily just here. Selfstudier (talk) 10:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I write, the US has vetoed the resolution in a 12, 2, 1 vote. Selfstudier (talk) 23:15, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Given that we call Palestine a country, I cannot see why we would not title it as we do other countries. Are there other countries with a "Republic of..." page? DenverCoder19 (talk) 04:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If you read anything above, you would've seen Republic of Ireland cited as an example, yes. Remsense诉 04:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See also both Congos. CMD (talk) 05:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support There are two Ireland — the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland in the Ireland region. In the case of Palestinian region, only one country with that exists, which is the State of Palestine. So yes I guess it should changed to Palestine. Also, people commonly used to call it by the name Palestine. Not the State of Palestine Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 06:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, it's not a question of WP:COMMONNAME, but WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. In other words: when people say "Palestine", are they usually referring to the region, or the specific government? Remsense诉 06:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It refers to Palestine the country, which is of Palestinians, the Arabs. People don't have much specific knowledge that Palestine is also the name of a geographic region. Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 07:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – unless WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is demonstrated, per reply above. Remsense诉 06:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support What if we moved the title to Palestine (country), or moving disambiguation link to Palestine (disambiguation) Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 07:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Generally, we want to avoid parenthetical disambiguators whenever possible: "State of Palestine" is much preferable than Palestine (state) etc. Remsense诉 07:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose per WP:NOPRIMARY and WP:NATDIS. With a bit of WP:RECENTISM, sure the State of Palestine is the primary topic. But the wider region of Palestine has been known by that name for centuries, so my concern is with long-term significance of the state versus that of the wider region. estar8806 (talk) ★ 11:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as we had one of these recently did we not, and nothing new has, been brought forward. Many places have multiple pages on differing aspects UK britain British Isle We need to differentiate between the region and the state. Slatersteven (talk)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 April 2024[edit]

I've found a misspelling in the section "Oil and gas": beleived -> believed AX29 (talk) 19:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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