Talk:James Callaghan

Father's death

His early life has his father dying at age 9. Can you please correct it to say his father died when Callaghan was aged 9? Thanks.

FAC?

Is this good enough for WP:FAC? Should I WP:PR it first? -- ALoan (Talk) 11:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unemployment Soaring?!

Towards the end of this article it states that during the winter of discontent that Unemployment was soaring but this is not the case. Between 1977 and 1979 when Mr. Callaghan left office UK Unemployment levels fell slightly. Unemployment only started soaring after Mrs. T got in and it hit 3 Million in the early '80s.

                                         Holden 27

Addition of Flanders and Swann Reference

Some six months on, author of below comment notes: the below comment was made by me some six months ago, and then at a later time I felt embarrassed by it and tried to retract it (this time not logged in properly to wikipedia, but just making an edit as an anonymous IP address.) Another user "un-did" my retraction and restored it. To this day I have no way of knowing on which level my "un-redactor" was being kind to me or just perhaps preemptive of some other potential censor's work, but a half a year on may I say that learning more of the UK's political history has been absolutely instructive for me in all sorts of ways. So that I am now doubly embarrassed for ever having raised a peep. But there are those of us in the 'States who know where our system of government (good or ill) originated. Still trying to improve our International Relations. Alan Canon 09:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

A perfectly strange thing just happened to me. James Callaghan's photo, but not his article, rated the front page of the English language edition of Wikipedia as a featured article. The article was on the United Kingdom corporation tax.

I looked at the photo of Callaghan, without recognizing him, and glanced at the article, and thought "Now, that's just a perfectly fine and typical-looking British Cabinet Minister, like that Harold Wilson and what's his name that Flanders and Swann used to sing about. So I decided to look up Harold Wilson, and from there was able to recover the name of James Callaghan, his Chancellor of the Exchequer and also mentioned in the song by Flanders and Swann.

The strange thing is that when I jumped from reading about Wilson to reading about Callaghan, Callaghan's picture looked familiar. I knew I'd seen that face before...no, wait a minute, it was the very picture from the featured article on the Wikipedia home page (at the time of writing, June 7, 2005.)!

What makes it strange is that I'm an 36-year old American who has only been to England for two weeks of his life, my only time out of the States. There's no particular cultural reason for me to remember these names aside from the Flanders and Swann reference. I just tangentially browsed my way into a little vortex of references, and it was "pot luck" that the person the picture reminded me, stereotypically, was none other than the person I was thinking of.

And how sad to hear that he's just passed away, after all this time. Rest in Peace, Hon. Mr. Callaghan. This Kentucky boy salutes you, and thanks to Wikipedia will remember now a little more about you.

I added a reference to the Flanders and Swann song to the page at the very end with a "James Callaghan in Popular Culture" section (but above the See Also section. I should like best for any person offended by my doing so, especially any British person who is so offended, to redact or eliminate this section. What I added is true, but I leave it to others to decide if it is appropriate. Alan Canon 02:28, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Name

Is the "g" in "Callaghan" stressed or silent ? How is the name pronounced in Ireland? Bastie 17:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, in the UK, it is almost invariably "Ca-la-han" with three shorts "a"s, primary stress on the "Ca" and secondary stress on the "han". -- ALoan (Talk)

Interesting, I've just heard Bernard Ingham pronounce the name Callag-an, and it's not the first time I've heard that pronounciation used. Bastie 03:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC

More to the point, in line with COMMONNAME shouldn’t this page be titled ‘Jim Callaghan’? MapReader (talk) 14:46, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Edit

I have added some extra information on Callaghans early years before he was MP for Cardiff. I have also made a new subsection on his personal life - moving paragraphs on his wife and children etc into this section. LordHarris 15:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Height

An unsigned user added this comment in the main text which I RVed: I think this is incorrect. According to Andrew Robert's biography, Lord Salisbury was 6ft 4in. Don't know if this is true, any thoughts? MarkThomas 09:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It's possible this might be due to the source in the Callaghan article being 10 Downing Street. Although Salisbury was PM, he wasn't first lord of the treasury (I'm not 100% on this), the traditional occupant of number 10, he was in fact foreign secretary. So if there is an official 'downing street tailor' or something who provides the stats, it may be that Callghan is the tallest ever first lord of the treasury, but not tallest PM. But I dunno.

Why not just rephrase it to say that he was one of the tallest Prime Ministers and not theactual tallest? Think the unassigned user was me. LordHarris 11:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I was the person who added to the main article, I wasn't aware of the 'wiki-quette', and frankly can't be bothered reading about it, so thanks to Mark Thomas for pointing it out to me. Lord Harris' suggestion seems like a good one to me. And, incidentally, if you're interested in British Prime Ministers, Roberts' biography of Lord Salisbury is superb.

I've heard that Tony Blair is "very tall": probably taller than Callaghan's 6'1". Millbanks 11:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

No, Blair is about six foot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.240.102 (talk) 10:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Edit

I have just purchased the new biography of Callaghan and will be adding lots of new info to the article. I have already made additions to his parents, his time in the royal navy, his standing for MP in Cardiff and his subsequent landslide election. I have also added references to support some of the new information. As I continue to read the biography I will make new additions to the article. If anyone is interested in working together to make the article on Callaghan more accurate, more academic and in more depth I would welcome the opportunity; especially on his years as Prime Minister (the section is very short giving his time and impact (winter of discontent) at Number 10. LordHarris 16:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I have now made new additions to early life and to his years as Chancellor, expanding the section to its own sub section in its own right. LordHarris 17:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Have finished expanding the Chancellor section (though the PM section now needs a lot of work). Have started expanding the home secretary section and added a few more references, including some sourced written statements. LordHarris 15:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Nice work. It is useful to expand the section's title from 'edit' to something about what you have edited. Regards Jonpatterns (talk) 11:01, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Irish Roots

I'd always thought that Jim Callaghan's father was Irish, but in the Irish Times today, Brian Walker of Queen's University, Belfast, disputes this: "his father only assumed this name when he joined the navy to escape his family."Millbanks 22:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure I recall hearing that the family name was originally Carraghan (unsure of spelling.) Still sounds Irish, though! RodCrosby 12:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the ODNB biography, the family name was "Garoghan", and James Callaghan's father changed it when he joined the navy. His grandfather (i.e. our subject's great grandfather) had left Ireland to escape the Potato Famine. The paragraph reads -

Petty Officer James Callaghan [the father of the Prime Minister] was of Irish descent (his grandfather had left Ireland at the time of the potato famine). He had changed his name from Garoghan, without recourse to deed polls, when he joined the fleet. He was by birth and upbringing a Roman Catholic. But when he met and fell in love with Charlotte Speare, a Baptist, he left the church after being refused permission to marry her and became a member of a Baptist chapel. His decision was to prove crucial to the life of his son. Although there is much doubt about how much belief Callaghan retained into adult life, the nonconformist ethic was a profound influence on all of his public and private life. By telling his son stories of ships and the sea Callaghan's father also encouraged in the young boy a romantic attachment to all things naval that, although uncharacteristic of his essentially down-to-earth character, remained with him for all his life."

Hope this helps. 92.40.156.2 (talk) 10:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Lieutenant?

Surely Jim Callagan would have dispensed with the title "Lieutenant" when he left the RNVR after the war? Millbanks 11:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The Gazette lists his rank in the 1950s listing Kernel Saunters 11:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

A naval rank of Lieutenant is not used in civilian life, only higher ranks can be used socially. Was Callaghan was a full lieutenant? He would not have been "promoted" from Ordinary Seaman to Lieutenant. He would have been commissioned as a lieutenant or sub lieutenant. He was probably first promoted to able seaman. Further details are needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 03:48, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

External link to Royal Historical Society Bibliography

A while ago I added an external link to a List of books and articles about James Callaghan on the Royal Historical Society Bibliography. This was removed by another editor as being contrary to Wikipedia policy. The same thing happened on some other pages about recent prime ministers and it has been discussed on the John Major discussion page. There seemed to be agreement that the link - giving access to a resource which is the most comprehensive online guide to what has been written about British and Irish history - was a useful one, but some doubt remained as to whether I should add such links myself, since I work for the Bibliography (although the service is run from London University, is supported by the Arts and Humanities Research Council and is free for anyone to use, so I am not advertising in a commercial sense.) I thought, therefore, that it might be worth continuing the dicussion here. I can see the logic behind a bar on editors promoting resources with which they are themselves involved, but I don't see how such a bar could be enforced - I know that others have done it without it being questioned. It's also the case that permanent deep links of the kind that I can add could not readily be added by someone working outside our project. This instance raises issues that extend more widely than this particular article as I could potentially add similar links to many articles. So if there is a better place to discuss it, I hope someone will suggest it (I am new to editing Wikipedia myself!) Bibliographer07 (talk) 11:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"...November when the surcharge of imports under the previous Conservative government..."

I do not understand the above line which appears in the section on JC as Chancellor of the Exchequer (third para, I think). If I'm being uniquely dumb about this, please ignore me. Otherwise could someone take a look and translate it into something I can understand. I've a feeling that the writer might have been thinking not of a 'surcharge of imports" but of a "surge of imports". I'm not sufficiently familiar with the trade balance in this period (beyond remembering from my childhood that, as reported, the British trade balance tended to be headline grabbingly negative) to know if that would be true, or a politically biased opinion or both or neither. (And I guess one shouldn't be shocked if entries on politicians contain politics.) But at least 'surge' would make sense here in its own terms to the averagely intelligent generalist reader. Or? And thanks Regards Charles01 (talk) 15:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

We do not write everything so a 12 year old will understand it. many scientific articles are difficult to understand without he background in science or logic and that is fine. it is here too. We should do our best to explain things clearly but do not need every reader to understand every line of wikipedia, that would be seriously dumbing down. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Your nice general statements make sense to me. I think I broadly agree with them. You have ignored my specific question however. And I'd still be interested in the answer if you know it

What is "a surcharge of imports"? Do you know? Does anyone know? Does it make sense to you? Or did the writer intend to write "a surplus of imports"? Or did the writer intend to write "a surge of imports"? The point may be important and it may be interesting (and if it is neither then the next question becomes obvious...)

I have, as it happens, studied a little bit of economics over the years. But I genuinely do not understand what is intended by the phrase I highlighted here. To me it therefore is unencyclopaedic or nonsense (or at best very ambiguous). If you actually know what it means here, I think you would be doing a service to several of us by rewording or clarifying the sentence. In general terms it's widely accepted that in the early 1960s (as arguably, in an intriguing parallel, at the start of the twenty-first century) UK government indulged in a burst of fiscal incontinence, of which the citizenry came to 'repent at leisure'. But this does not help me with a definition of the phrase 'a surcharge of imports'.

Please. And thank you! Regards Charles01 (talk) 05:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I have also studied economics and work in finance. This phrase means nothing to me and doesn't match with any generally accepted economic principle. It has to contain a typo. It also sounds politically biased with its mention of the Conservative party. It would be more authoritative if it was sourced. Regards--Beddo (talk) 17:03, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Personal Life

Can someone confirm that Callaghan was indeed an atheist? That was clearly not the case when he met his wife. Was he both a "Baptist" and an "atheist"? Richard David Ramsey 04:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure there was a "Private Eye" cover round about the time of the 1979 election with the Callaghan family coming out of church, and his grandchildren asking one another something to the effect of "I didn't know Grandpa believed in God." "Only once every five years". So perhaps he occasionally attended church for appearances' sake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 08:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Callaghan was certainly less religious as an adult than in his early life (his background was, frankly, rather fundamentalist), though I've never seen him described as an atheist before. There's quite a bit on Callaghan's religious views in Ken Morgan's biography of him and it might be worth reading through it to check that sort of thing (it's been a while since I've read it and I wasn't exactly looking out for that sort of information at the time). Probably best to revert to just describing him as Baptist until there's evidence to describe him otherwise. Might be an idea to add that he was less religious in mid and later life as well, or something like that (though I'm not sure whether it matters a great deal).

Sibboleth (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think Callaghan admitted in an interview that he had lost his belief in God as an adult. (GranvilleHouston (talk) 20:52, 23 June 2009 (UTC))

I wonder if Callaghan as an MP insisted on "affirming" his loyalty - a procedure legalised after Charles Bradlaugh's case - instead of swearing the traditional Oath of Allegiance on the Bible?Cloptonson (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have any information about what actually happened but I do know that the Catholic Church did have provisions for Catholics marrying non-Catholics at the time that Callaghan married his wife outside the Church. The Code of Canon Law 1917 Chapter VI, in effect at the time, covers all the requirements for Mixed Marriages (sic). Therefore their situation must have fallen outside of those provisions (e.g. perhaps she refused to be married in the Catholic Church or to raise the children Catholic etc). Code of Canon Law 1917 English Translation PDF — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.166.74.31 (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

In place of Strife

I'm surprised that this article makes no mention that Callaghan led the opposition to In Place of Strife in 1969. The fact that Callaghan managed to block legislation which would have made much of the union activity in the Winter of Discontent illegal, was one of the greatest ironies of his career, which came back to haunt him. G-Man ^? 02:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

George Thomas

It is mentioned in the article that Callaghan narrowly beat George Thomas to be the Labour party candidate for Cardiff South in 1945. I assume that this si the same George Thomas who stood and was elected in Cardiff Central that year (George Thomas, 1st Viscount Tonypandy). Could someone confirm this so that we can link him?--Peter cohen (talk)

Yes, it was that George Thomas. Sibboleth (talk) 22:41, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

1962

The article gives the impression that vouchers were introduced in 1968. Actually, they seem to have been introduced in 1962, in an attempt to restrict immigration into Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.108.96 (talk) 14:24, 5 November 2008 (UTC) The number of vouchers was reduced in 1965 and they were replaced by work permits in 1971. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.30.71.244 (talk) 14:16, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

funeral and burial

Has anyone got information about Lord Callaghan's funeral and burial? Thanks. Cyan22 (talk) 09:39, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Religion

Although the body says " Although there is much doubt about how much belief Callaghan retained into adult life, the Baptist nonconformist ethic was a profound influence throughout all of his public and private life," the infobox jumps the gun and calls him an outright atheist.

Well, what was he? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simfan34 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Callaghan admitted in a 1980s interview that he was an atheist. (92.7.11.238 (talk) 09:06, 14 September 2011 (UTC))

IMF Loan down the memory hole

Why is there no mention of the IMF loan of 1976? One of the most humiliating events in modern British history and one of the defining points of Callaghan's time in office. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.95.153.254 (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

That's very interesting. Please add if you have reliable sources. Jonpatterns (talk) 11:02, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

The Times

The "Winter of Discontent" section includes the following sentence:

In the build up to the election, the Daily Mirror and The Guardian supported Labour, while The Sun, the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, and The Daily Telegraph supported the Conservatives.<ref>Stoddard, Katy (4 May 2010). "Newspaper support in UK general elections". The Guardian. London.</ref>

An IP editor keeps trying to insert "The Times" as a supporter of the Conservatives, despite the source above indicating that it showed no particular support to any party in 1979. I have tried to engage the editor in discussion but have had no response. I am not sure if that means the editor is unable to respond or just unwilling to engage in discussion. Do other editors have an opinion on the edit? Road Wizard (talk) 16:23, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't this the year the Times wasn't published due to a longrunning strike? Timrollpickering (talk) 23:37, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. That certainly clears things up. Hopefully the IP editor will pay attention to this talk page. Road Wizard (talk) 01:03, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Connection to businesses

I've found a website detailing Callaghan's connections to various businesses, is it appropriate to add? http://www.rebeccatelevision.com/categories/archives_01 Jonpatterns (talk) 10:59, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Commercialbbc as a reliable source?

"a precursor to the monetarist economic policies that the next government, a Conservative one led by Margaret Thatcher, would pursue in order to ease the crises."[15]

15 refers to a COMbbc source whch is hardly impartial. All Thatcher did was plunder the poor even more intensively than Callaghan, exploiting his precedent. The "crises" never went away, they were institutionalised.Keith-264 (talk) 14:31, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Great Ormond Street

I don't doubt it, but can anyone find a citation for the claim that Callaghan's ashes were scattered around the Peter Pan statue outside Great Ormond Street? Gareth E Kegg (talk) 15:07, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

The only sources I could find were a listing on NNDB and Find a Grave websites, but one wonders whether they got the information from Wikipedia, or the other way round. Also, I don't think they would be valid citations. There is a small plaque in the flower bed around the statue that commemorates the fact Callaghan's ashes were scattered there, together with those of Audrey, so an actual photo of the plaque would help. Anyone? (talk) 15:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:06, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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external link?

Would an interview with transcript with James Callaghan from 1987 be useful here as an external link? Focus of conversation is nuclear weapons policy. http://openvault.wgbh.org/catalog/V_22AA44B566844D888F89E1BA4A3F3925 (I have a conflict of interest; otherwise I would add it myself.) Mccallucc (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

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Oldest living prime minister

Why do we need this in the succession boxes? Are 20 succession boxes too few? I would be very surprised to learn that a biographer of Callaghan says who preceded and who followed Callaghan as the "oldest living prime minister". Surtsicna (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Delete - Too trivial for a succession box. GoodDay (talk) 22:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Keep - record is independently verifiable. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:33, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Being verifiable does not necessitate inclusion. Please explain why something so minute needs to be presented as the article's 22nd succession box. Surtsicna (talk) 18:41, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

See List of oldest living prime ministers of the United Kingdom. It's not "minute", we have a standalone list of the holders of this record and this should warrant inclusion among the succession boxes. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

We have all sorts of trivia, and that one is not even a standalone article but merely a section. Why not have a box for "Longest-lived prime minister"? Or the "Longest-married prime minister"? Or the "Shortest-widowed prime minister"? Or the "Tallest prime minister"? We have all those records for Callaghan on Wikipedia. Surtsicna (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

It's just too trivial. These succession boxes should be limited to government offices & party posts. GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

This is not mere trivia. Unlike Surtsicna's false equivalences, we actually have a list of the oldest-living British prime ministers and it's useful and helpful to maintain a sequence of this notable record. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:24, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we have that completely unsourced list, and we can make unsourced lists for all the similarly trivial records that Wikipedia says Callaghan holds. What does that prove? We have List of British monarchs by longevity as a standalone article but do we have an "Oldest British monarch" box at Elizabeth II? Of course not because it would be utter tosh. Surtsicna (talk) 20:28, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

It proves that this record is nowhere near as random as the others. It's a sequential component of a comprehensive list of predecessors and successors. Readers may very well have reached this article by clicking List of oldest living prime ministers of the United Kingdom, just as they may have for any other succession Callaghan is listed as a part of. Your reference to List of British monarchs by longevity is utterly disingenuous, given that there is almost always only one monarch living at one time, rendering any possible sequence moot. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:39, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I think we may need an RFC covering this issue for all the British prime minister bios. GoodDay (talk) 20:41, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I'd expand it to cover all officeholders around the world, lest we actually have to one day explain on a talk page why it is ludicrous to have an "Oldest Canadian monarch" succession box. Surtsicna (talk) 20:56, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Would Village Pump be the best location? I've considered WP:POLITICS, but my RFC there for 'party nominees', isn't getting much attention. GoodDay (talk) 20:59, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I suppose so, since it would cover non-political officeholders too. Surtsicna (talk) 21:11, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Shall we begin to include Tallest-living British prime minister, Fattest-living British prime minister, etc ? GoodDay (talk) 20:34, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Only once someone gets around ordering the prime ministers on Wikipedia by height, it would seem. Surtsicna (talk) 20:37, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

This box is symptomatic of the relentless copying of US Presidential trivia across all office holders. No Swan So Fine (talk) 17:02, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Capitalising in British PM bios

I mentioned this dispute at WP:POLITICS. FWIW, the practice has been to capitalise in the bios of British prime ministers. GoodDay (talk) 21:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

MOS:JOBTITLES says that capitals should only be used to denote a politician's title, with lowercase used if the sentence is modified to denote their office. So it would be correct to use capitals in James Callaghan was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1976 to 1979, but James Callaghan served as prime minister of the United Kingdom from 1976 to 1979 would need to use lowercase. This means the capitals used in the lead are misused, as "Prime Minister of the United Kingdom" is modified by "the" to denote the office not the title. Removing "the" would solve this problem, as would changing "Prime Minister" to lowercase. The reverse is happening with "leader of the Labour Party", where you could argue that it should use capitals, as it is unmodified and forms a new clause. Thanks, PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 23:00, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

We have ourselves a huge mess, then, across all the British prime ministers bios. I'm in favour of de-capitalising, if it's applied to all of them Walpole to Johnson. GoodDay (talk) 23:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

The infobox is supposed to be a summary of the most important information about the subject. Why should the infobox here contain names that are never mentioned in the text? Surtsicna (talk) 12:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

The lead is the summary of the article. The infobox is a standard pro forma for carrying information and not every detail in every infobox is also included in the text of that article as standard. It is standard to include the predecessors and successors for each office help or to show where there was none. Random inclusions and exclusions are the worst of all well. As there is no consensus here to remove them the box has been restored to standard. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:04, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

An infobox is defined as a panel "that summarizes key features of the page's subject". The less information there is an infobox, the more useful it is, and any "any unnecessary content" should be excluded "whenever possible" (WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE). The names John Parker and Bernard Braine are not "key features" of the subject of this page, as evidenced by the fact that these men are never brought up in the text. Moreover, Father of the House is a title, not an office, so it is misleading (if not outright incorrect) for the infobox to speak of Callaghan having been "in office" from 1983 to 1987 as Father of the House. And as far as I can tell, it is not standard to include parameters effectively stating "none"; we do not, for example, have "Spouse = None" or "Children = Childless" at Edward Heath. Surtsicna (talk) 12:18, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Great Offices of State

Hi all - @Neveselbert: thinks it's a clever idea that the person known for holding all four of the Great Offices of State (and a fact mentioned in the first paragraph of the lede) should have all but one of those offices hidden away behind a reduced infobox. This seems absolutely stupid to me. Any complaints or disagreement for bringing these into the prominence they clearly warrant? Vaze50 (talk) 23:03, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

What on Earth are you complaining about? They are all there: Chancellor of the Exchequer, Foreign Secretary, Home Secretary and Prime Minister. I also don't think that you should name people and bring them up in a negative context just to call their opinion "absolutely stupid". Please don't do that. Cheers! Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:25, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Inspector of Taxes

Under "Early Life and Career" we have Callaghan working as a tax clerk in Maidstone at the age of 17, that is, in 1929. Immediately after this it says "[w]hile working as a tax inspector, Callaghan joined the Maidstone branch of the Labour Party". The next dated event is in 1932 when "he passed a Civil Service exam which enabled him to become a senior tax inspector": this would be at the age of 20. By 1936 he had left the civil service and become a full-time union official.

It may seem that anyone working for the Inland Revenue's tax offices could be described as a tax inspector, but in the 1930s there were regular grades in the IR, and "tax officer" - apparently Callaghan's grade on starting was a purely clerical job - and to be appointed formally as a tax inspector, with the ability to make assessments, required several years of training. I am guessing that the exam he passed in 1932 saw him promoted to "Tax Officer (Higher Grade)". In the interwar years, a Senior Inspector was a lofty grade, typically the head of one of the larger tax offices.

This is an excerpt from Hansard 6 June 1930 (Mr W. J Brown MP), describing the system. A tax inspector was "administrative staff" and a tax officer "clerical class":

At the top there is a class called the administrative class, charged with the general responsibility of administrating the Civil Service. Below that class there is an executive class concerned with the direction of blocks of business. Below that there is the clerical class, which discharges a broad range of clerical functions throughout the Service. Below that there are a class of writing assistants, women engaged upon less important clerical operations, and typing and shorthand typing classes also consisting of women. Finally, at the bottom of the structure, there are some 6,000 temporary Civil servants, men and women, who are liable to dismissal at any time. To each of the main established classes, administrative, executive, clerical and writing assistant, there is direct recruitment of candidates coming straight from the schools. At the same time, there is in each of these classes an acute block of promotion. Executive officers cannot get promoted to the administrative class, clerical officers to the executive class, writing assistants and P-men to the clerical class, and so on, or cannot be promoted in anything like the numbers that would be possible but for the fact of this direct entry of boys and girls from school to each of the main established classes.

Is there any evidence that Callaghan actually was a tax inspector? Thomas Peardew (talk) 15:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

The source is available on Google Books.^[1] It does not say "senior tax inspector", it says "senior tax officer". I have edited the article.-- Toddy1 (talk) 15:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. "Tax officer" and "senior tax officer" will do very well. By the 1960s, when I worked for the Inland Revenue these were know as "TO" and "TO(HG)". In terms of that Hansard extract, Callaghan would have been promoted from a clerical grade to an executive grade. Thomas Peardew (talk) 17:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)