Talk:Surtees Racing Organisation

F2

This need something about Formula 2, Surtees won the European F2 championship once ! Ericd 20:46, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Added info on Formula 2, among other things. Not a whole lot, but it's a start. Scottanon 21:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Dab

Why isn't the word "Surtees" a disambiguation page? I was looking for R.S. Surtees, and I find some racecar thing.

--> was looking for R. S. Surtees myself - don't know how to do disambiguation pages, but entered a link for those looking for the author. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.101.21 (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I've created Surtees (disambiguation) and linked it. DH85868993 (talk) 09:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Surteeslogo.jpg

Image:Surteeslogo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot (talk) 12:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Added fair use rational Scottanon (talk) 04:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Money Problems

I don't have the References to hand at the moment but will try to look for them but pretty sure in an Interview with "Big John" the money problems arose in 1974 when Bang and Olufsen were naming sponsors. I can't recall if he named them directly but he at least hinted pretty heavily that their money didn't eventuate and to compete in 1974 was a drain on money that was going to be spent on a new car for 1975 (which was the TS16). Which when it (the TS16) appeared in 1976 he admitted in the Interview that it was a year late. Alan Jones may have hinted at this too when he/Botsford wrote about his 1976 experiences in his/Botsford's book "Driving Ambition". Must have a read of it again to see if it is indeed in there. Dora Domino (talk) 18:04, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

1977 Paragraph

With respect to
"Jones's success resulted in him leaving the team for the emerging Shadow team, and money problems forced Surtees to run one car regularly again in 1977, this time for Vittorio Brambilla. Brambilla's season was effective, also finishing in the points three times. Still, his good results did not prevent Surtees from further monetary troubles. In 1978, the team added a second car for pay driver, Briton Rupert Keegan, but the money problems continued. A lack of decent results caused further problems."
Interested to discuss this owing to the following :
1. Alan did not want to drive for Surtees in 1977 despite Surtees exercising an option (AJ tells the story of trying to avoid "Big John" by hiding in his Room at I think either the Canadian or US East GP however when he ventured out for a Hamburger he went down in the Lift and when it opened there was "Big John") with Alan saying he would rather sit out of F1 in 1977 than drive for Surtees. Pretty sure that is in his/Botsford's book as well as in his "F1 Legends" TV program.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eGXd81w2T0
2. Shadow were hardly "emerging" in 1977 (if anything they were on a downward slide from 1976) and Alan only got the drive with them after Tom Pryce's fatal accident at Kyalami.
3. Have a look at the results for 1977 and you will see that 2 cars were run - one for VB and the second for a Heinz variety of Drivers.
Must go and have a read of "Driving Ambition" now.
Dora Domino (talk) 18:17, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Yep see the video from 5:27 it was at Mosport so it was the Canadian Grand Prix.
Dora Domino (talk) 18:20, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Category suggestion

Please consider adding this and other relevant articles (e.g. Hill) to a new category for F1 teams founded by active or former F1 drivers. I came here looking for exactly that because I could not name them all from memory; but WP's categorisation, especially for motorsport, is often a letdown in that regard. 80.195.4.13 (talk) 16:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

No opposition from me (for now) SSSB (talk) 21:29, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Attempt to request renaming (malfunction)

I made an attempt to use the template proffered here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Requested_move) to request the page be moved to "Surtees Racing Organisation", as that is the actual name of the company, not "Surtees", a surname with multiple entries at WP and (confusingly) the name of the company founder, Formula One champion John Surtees. Instead (possibly because changes are being requested this very day to the provided template) it did not do what it said it would, and just produced an undesired new navbox.

Can some registered user out there either please just move the page as requested (to its proper legal name), and if not then submit a request for a move (on my behalf) at that page (since unregistered users are prevented from even making a request there). Thank you. 2601:196:180:DC0:113D:3F29:5372:8B54 (talk) 21:44, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello User:Nthep...Lil' help (from a handy administrator)...? The problem is as above: the template provided for an unregistered user to "post" a move request directly at the relevant page malfunctioned, leaving me and the request dead in the water. I believe the request is reasonable (and as you can see from the 2nd post on this page has been an issue since 2008), and respectfully ask that you make it. If not, it is certainly reasonable enough to add to the WP requested moves page and let those there hash it out. Thank you. 2601:196:180:DC0:113D:3F29:5372:8B54 (talk) 22:13, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

@2601:196:180:DC0:113D:3F29:5372:8B54: I've created the move request below. For future reference, the instructions for requesting a move of a single page are provided at Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requesting_a_single_page_move. The discussion will probably go for a week or so, after which the page will be moved (or not) depending on the outcome of the discussion. I didn't just move the page myself in the expectation that some editors may argue that the racing team/constructor is the primary topic for the name "Surtees" and that the page should therefore not be moved. Regards. DH85868993 (talk) 23:01, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 4 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. As stated by the supporters, using the official name is indeed an acceptable way of forming a natural disambiguation, as in the classic example Apple Inc. instead of Apple (company) or similar. Further, natural disambiguation is preferred when possible over parenthetical disambiguation per WP:AT, so the Supports have the better policy basis here. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 05:08, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

---

Surtees → Surtees Racing Organisation – that is the actual name of the company, not "Surtees", a surname with multiple entries at WP and (confusingly) the name of the company founder. (DH85868993 (talk) on behalf of) 2601:196:180:DC0:113D:3F29:5372:8B54 (see preceding section) 22:58, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Formula One has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support per @2601:196:180:DC0:113D:3F29:5372:8B54 and @DH85868993

RegalZ8790 (talk) 02:46, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support as a form of natural disambiguation in an instance where this article is clearly not the primary topic over other Surtees related articles. SSSB (talk) 07:03, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  The more common practice is to add disambiguation between brackets. Tvx1 02:18, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

  Where a natural disambiguation exists, I'm not convinced it is more common. Even if it were that doesn't (in the absence of further argument) make natural disambiguation less valid. SSSB (talk) 06:53, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

  It is. The problem with your "proposed natural disambiguation" is that it ignores WP:OFFICIAL and WP:COMMON. The correct action to deal with a WP:PRECISE issue like this is to add a descriptor to the title between brackets.Tvx1 02:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

  It doesn't ignore WP:OFFICIAL. All that wp:official says is that the official name of something shouldn't be the article title by default. It doesn't prohibit the use of official titles. Now, I am more than happy to accept the common name is simply Surtees, but this article is not the primary Surtees article (I don't see you disputing this) so some form of disambiguation is needed. I don't see why the natural disambiguation to "Surtees Racing Organisation" ignores wp:common either. If we compare with your proposed "Surtees (racing team)", the only difference (in terms of words) is the use of organisation instead of team (these are virtually synonymous in context) and the only other difference of note is the presence of brackets. I don't object to your proposed name, I just don't understand your rational against the proposed move here...

  As an aside, we use a similar naming statergy with Williams Grand Prix Engineering (instead of Williams (racing team)), and Red Bull Racing (instead of Red Bull (racing team), Scuderia Ferrari (instead of Ferrari (racing team)) to name but three so your prior claim that using brackets is more common seems doubtful. SSSB (talk) 06:56, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support. We're not talking "Marmite" or "Sterno"...completely genericised "trademarks" in universal use, and universally understood in lieu of their makers. "Surtees" as synonymous with a 1970s racing team is just not the case for an "everyman's encyclopedia" user in 2024.2601:196:180:DC0:CDC4:B20:880B:B95D (talk) 15:34, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  This is not the way we generally disambiguate though. Tvx1 02:17, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

  I do not know what this is supposed to mean. The "disambiguation" is simply to take the ambiguity out and give the page the proper name of its subject. That's extremely straightforward.

  Less straightforward (but perhaps a better approach, and to similar pages bearing only an individual's surname to identify a team name (as with Brabham, McLaren, and who knows how many others)) is a change to "Surtees (racing team)" as suggested below, as it is actually clearer than "Surtees Racing Organization" (or "Motor Racing Developments, Ltd." for "Brabham").

  The only thing that does not appear satisfactory (being both confusing to general encyclopedia users and emitting an inappropriately "clubby" air hanging over Formula racing articles) is naming the pages for these teams the single surname of their principal founder (even if they still at times end up piped to that in appropriate context within articles as exceptions). 2601:196:180:DC0:58DB:99AB:E9F7:996F (talk) 15:12, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

  We don't tend to give preference to official names though. In a case like this our normal action is to just add disambiguation between brackets, as that satisfies both WP:PRECISE and WP:COMMON. The reason why we tend to go with "he single surname of their principal founder" because that is what they are most commonly referred by in the sources.Tvx1 02:13, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose When an article appears to be not WP:PRECISE enough, the common practice is to add disambiguation between brackets (i.e. Surtees (racing team)) rather than replacing the WP:COMMON name by the WP:OFFICIAL name.Tvx1 02:16, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

See reply to this point in 2nd indent above.2601:196:180:DC0:58DB:99AB:E9F7:996F (talk) 15:14, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support replace with the disambiguation page -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 06:52, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support per SSSB. This is a good natural disambiguation. Surtees (disambiguation) should then be moved to Surtees. A7V2 (talk) 07:28, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

  But runs afoul of a set of core policies.Tvx1 02:15, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

  From WP:NATURAL "Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title, is sometimes preferred", and from the section Wikipedia:Article titles#Parenthetical disambiguation below this: "Adding a disambiguating term in parentheses after the ambiguous name is Wikipedia's standard disambiguation technique when none of the other solutions lead to an optimal article title" (emphasis mine). It's possible to make the argument that Surtees Racing Organisation is not used enough, though it is used at least sometimes (for example [1] and [2]). However to say it runs afoul of core policies is at best an exageration, as policy explicitely allows for such titles. It is my opinion that this proposed title is more than suitable and so a parenthetical disambiguation is not necessary, but I will say that I would prefer such a title to the current one. The fact that this alternate title is the official name isn't overly relevant one way or the other (hence why I said per SSSB and not per the nominator). A7V2 (talk) 06:06, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. No primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:17, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.