Talk:Saint Thomas Christians

Why the "Saint Thomas Christians" called the "Syrian Christians":

I have read different opinions in different articles. I would like to point out some of it.

1)They are also called Syrian Christians because of their use of Syriac, which is a dialect of Aramaic, in liturgy.

2)The Malankara Church is a church of the Saint Thomas Christians of Kerala, India, with particular emphasis on the part of the community that joined Archdeacon Mar Thoma in swearing to resist the authority of the Portuguese Padroado in 1653. This faction soon entered into a relationship with the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, and was thereafter often known as the Malankara 'Syrian' Church. Ref:Gregorios & Roberson, p. 285;Vadakkekara, p. 91.

Here they say the church came to be known as Syrian church because of their relationship with Syriac Orthodox Church in Antioch.

3) The term Syrian relates not to their ethnicity but to their historical, religious and liturgical connection to the Church of the East, or East Syrian Church. Ref:Županov, Ines G. (2005). Missionary Tropics: The Catholic Frontier in India (16th–17th centuries), p. 99 and note. University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-472-11490-5

4)At least from the fourth century the Indian Church entered into a close relationship with the Persian or East Syrian Church. From the Persians, the Indians inherited East Syrian language and liturgies and gradually came to be known as Syrian Christians.

5)Syriac Christianity (Syriac: ܡܫܝܚܝܘܬܐ ܣܘܪܝܝܬܐ‎ / mšiḥāiūṯā suryāiṯā) encompasses the multiple Churches of Eastern Christianity whose services tend to feature liturgical use of ancient Syriac, a dialect of Middle Aramaic that emerged in Edessa in the early 1st century AD, and is closely related to the Aramaic of Jesus.

Ref:Allen C. Myers, ed (1987). "Aramaic". The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans. p. 72. ISBN 0-8028-2402-1.

6)The dutch colonial people in India first called the Saint Thomas Christians as "Syrian Christians' 7) I contest this 6th point. They were called Suriyani Christianis for centuries all together.

Add information about the division in simple terms

"Syrian Christians are divided mainly into Syrian Catholic, Jacobite, Orthodox, Marthoma churches depending upon whether they owe their allegiance to the Pope in Rome, the Patriarch in Antioch, Catholicos in Kerala’s Kottayam or Metropolita in Thiruvalla."

References

badly written

why did who do what where with whom for waht reason? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.130.142.29 (talk) 05:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Need more information

The article is missing info on various encounters with outsiders. I found some old sources https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.278587/page/n205/mode/2up?q=malabar and https://archive.org/details/lingeringslight00whitgoog/page/n46/mode/2up?q=war which give insight into the travelers who reached the community before the Portuguese. There is also the purported Joseph the Indian who is said to be the first Indian Christian to visit Europe. Purportedly because his account were recorded by an unknown European unlike Varthamanappusthakam which was not written by a European. Maybe the language barrier but here to inform there is more information out there.Manabimasu (talk) 06:29, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

But wouldn't that be contradictory for the common perception that Vasco Da Gama was the first European to land in the Malabar coast??? Seems that it is well sourced then can be added to the article. AARYA SAJAYAN (talk) 02:07, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@AARYA SAJAYAN: Vasco de Gama was the first European to reach India by an all-sea route. I’m not sure why it’s not mentioned on wiki pages but there were other Europeans who traveled by land and sea routes to India. Maybe because it’s not credible enough. We can cite it as the accounts of the traveler. It may or may not be real. The info I see that’s needed is documentation on Portuguese arrival. I came across Joseph Azar (prince) and according to the above source there was a war between Jews and Muslims which the Christians and local princes fought in. Here is another source https://archive.org/details/LettersFromMalabar_201601/page/n141/mode/2up. I’m trying to find if there is more info on the war. Also, the source(https://archive.org/details/lingeringslight00whitgoog/page/n324/mode/2up) says the community had preserved the history and that there were 32 chief Brahmins instead of one king. Manabimasu (talk) 07:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

That is indeed something new. I will also be active in finding more sourced materials regarding the conflict between the ancient jews and muslims. I have heard about a tradition of the knanaya community, a Jewish Christian community which had migrated to Southern parts of Kerala from Cranganore (Kodungallur/Muziris) as a result of the war. AARYA SAJAYAN (talk) 09:31, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@AARYA SAJAYAN: I found a source http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/157659/1/157659.pdf see page 19. Here it says the Jews and Christians fought each other.Another source https://jainqq.org/explore/032548/104 on Visscher's Letters. The account is from an Italian traveler. I think travelers may have information on the conflicts of the Malabar before the portuguese. Maybe the St. Thomas Community does not have a detailed account or that much of the history is still in Malayalam and not in English. We could compile all the travelers before portuguese who write about the area. So far I have seen

European Traveler accounts to add:

Marco Polo,Odorico, Sighelm, Theodorus, Giovanni de' Marignolli, Jordanus of Severac, Aloysius Cadamustus

Arab travelers accounts to add-

Abu al-Fidāʾ,Dimašqī

Manabimasu (talk) 14:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Image

This conversation is copied from User talk:Pbritti

thumb|140px|Image being discussed.

Hey Pbritti, I just uploaded this image since it contains the traditional dress of the st thomas syrian christians chatta and mundu which is mentioned in the wikipedia article.I'm a person belonging to this community of St.Thomas Christians.Kindly do consider these images to be kept on the page.Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TRHmTivl (talk • contribs) 17:27, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, @TRHmTivl: Thanks for reaching out, I'm going to move this conversation to the talk page of the article per standard procedure, but wanted to respond to you here quickly. Three other editors disagree with the inclusion of that image on the grounds that it is excessive, and your insertion of the image has been reverted four times. Additionally, it is peculiarly captioned for a photo of a very specific couple. The clothing is mentioned in the article, but not in your caption. While inclusion of images of traditional dress are nice, the image hardly depicts that clothing (only from the chest up). A preferable image exists on the page for the Chatta and Mundu. You've also been inserting the image in a location somewhat irrelevant to what it depicts; if we weren't already so full-up on illustrations in that article, you'd want to put it directly by the passage that mentions it. Thanks for reaching out, but I recommend you heed the gathered consensus against that image on the page. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

As I mentioned at Commons:User talk:TRHmTivl, I have concerns over the copyright status of this image.

I also agree with Pbritti that it is not useful to readers, as I do not think it is relevant enough to Saint Thomas Christians as an encyclopedia topic. Since it doesn't clearly illustrate the clothes, it is decorative, and therefore inappropriate. Grayfell (talk) 18:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

@Grayfell: I was also concerned about the copyright status; at least here in the U.S, I have a hard time imagining it's free. Regardless, it's an unideal image for this page. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:05, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Engagement and Marriage are not performed in the same service

> For example, engagement and marriage are usually performed together in the same service.

This requires citation. Except for some very rare and specific cases, engagement (othukalyanam) and kalyanam (marriage) are performed separately and hosted by the bride's family and groom's family respectively. ParaPsychic (talk) 02:09, 4 October 2023 (UTC)